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re: This is what happens when leagues compete instead of clubs
Posted on 10/11/17 at 10:06 am to LSU316
Posted on 10/11/17 at 10:06 am to LSU316
quote:
I'm still puzzled as to why we refuse to even try methods that have been used over and over and have worked over and over.
Because it requires completely changing everything about US soccer, and is frankly an unrealistic aspiration for the next decade at least. It will take more than one failure and a few deaths for new ideas to take hold.
And again, without direction from the FA, as we've seen in Belgium and Germany, or direct intervention from the FA as we saw in France, pro/rel by itself does nothing but incentivize clubs to stay in the top divisions by any means necessary, which usually means buying already proven talent with the money clubs have. It literally takes the FA to provide funding for coaching for these clubs to produce players. Why won't anyone talk about that?
2
Posted on 10/11/17 at 10:12 am to crazy4lsu
Bc the USSF is a fricking joke
Of course all FAs want to make money but ours refuses to spend it the right way and uses players parents to subsidize its income
Of course all FAs want to make money but ours refuses to spend it the right way and uses players parents to subsidize its income
Posted on 10/11/17 at 10:13 am to crazy4lsu
quote:
Because it requires completely changing everything about US soccer
I don't think that is a bad thing when you compare it to what could happen if we don't change anything.
quote:
frankly an unrealistic aspiration for the next decade at least.
Why? The league will have to prop up some promoted teams....it's obvious they aren't doing much else with the money they make anyway.
quote:
It will take more than one failure
There has been more than one.
quote:
a few deaths for new ideas to take hold.
I'm not for executions but let me know who it is...I know a guy
quote:
And again, without direction from the FA, as we've seen in Belgium and Germany, or direct intervention from the FA as we saw in France, pro/rel by itself does nothing but incentivize clubs to stay in the top divisions by any means necessary, which usually means buying already proven talent with the money clubs have. It literally takes the FA to provide funding for coaching for these clubs to produce players. Why won't anyone talk about that?
There is no doubt we need to completely blow up the leadership structure of USSF....we need to bring in guys that can drive the pro/rel initiative from the USSF perspective. MLS needs to be brought in line to work with the player development directives they are given. It will take a strong USSF to do it.....currently we don't have that so that would have to change as well.
Posted on 10/11/17 at 10:18 am to LSU316
quote:
There is no doubt we need to completely blow up the leadership structure of USSF....we need to bring in guys that can drive the pro/rel initiative from the USSF perspective. MLS needs to be brought in line to work with the player development directives they are given. It will take a strong USSF to do it.....currently we don't have that so that would have to change as well.
We don't have any power. It will take something monumental for the powers that be to give up control. We have to work within the system we have. Pro/rel won't fix anything other than to punish lazy owners.
We need to centralize development and keep youth development from the clubs, who can be trusted to give up the moment a finished product is available for a few million. The franchise model only works if there is a structure in place (like college or minor league sports) to subsidize development. If that is the model we are committed to, and unfortunately it looks like it is, we should then subsidize development.
Posted on 10/11/17 at 10:20 am to StraightCashHomey21
quote:
Bc the USSF is a fricking joke
Of course all FAs want to make money but ours refuses to spend it the right way and uses players parents to subsidize its income
Pay to play is damaging, but that is reflective of the neoliberal values that have taken hold in this country. There isn't public service anymore. All of it requires nickel and diming people who barely have enough. That's why I said it would require a billionaire to save us.
Posted on 10/11/17 at 10:33 am to Draconian Sanctions
Do we have a good enough second and third level to make legit Pro/Rel an option?
You are right about one thing. MLS operationally is closer to other American sports leagues, then it is to soccer leagues in other countries.
As far as pay to play... how do you fix that? Stop trying to make money off of it? More sponsors? More investment - by whom?
You are right about one thing. MLS operationally is closer to other American sports leagues, then it is to soccer leagues in other countries.
As far as pay to play... how do you fix that? Stop trying to make money off of it? More sponsors? More investment - by whom?
Posted on 10/11/17 at 10:35 am to crazy4lsu
quote:
We have to work within the system we have.
Well we'll get what we've always gotten.....if that's how we want to play things that's fine....let's just say it.
quote:
If that is the model we are committed to
Franchise model is dumb....we would be so much better off if the teams had total control of their business. I think that would make MLS better as a whole.
quote:
we should then subsidize development.
Who? Parents, taxpayers, etc...we run the risk of losing the next Cristiano Ronaldo. If we are OK with that as a soccer nation like I said we should just own it and move on.
Posted on 10/11/17 at 10:41 am to LSU316
quote:
Franchise model is dumb....we would be so much better off if the teams had total control of their business. I think that would make MLS better as a whole.
We would be, but I don't think we will see a dismantling of the structure just because we didn't make a WC.
quote:
Who?
USSF
Posted on 10/11/17 at 1:40 pm to crazy4lsu
So what your saying is that we keep things exactly the way they are and expect different results.
I may be a lot of things but I'm not insane enough to believe that. It's fine to keep things the way that they are but we have to accept that we have already reached our pinnacle of national team success. It is what it is.
I may be a lot of things but I'm not insane enough to believe that. It's fine to keep things the way that they are but we have to accept that we have already reached our pinnacle of national team success. It is what it is.
Posted on 10/11/17 at 2:30 pm to LSU316
quote:same here in north MS. It's ridiculous some of the talent (not MLS world beaters, but able to play college soccer, at the least) that just slips through the cracks due to there being no options.
There are so many towns in south LA that have 0 options for youth soccer....that is unreal.
Posted on 10/11/17 at 2:39 pm to LSU316
No. I'm saying the USSF should do a lot more to subsidize development. I've long wanted to copy the French model which circumvents the clubs entirely with 12 finishing schools. I want pay to play to end. I don't think the USSF will do that, but I also don't think pro/real will magically fix all our problems. I think without clear direction from the USSF, the pro/rel model will give US players less of a chance as it did in England because teams would be interested in survival. That's what people continually discount about pro/rel and no one seems to have an answer for why it alone would incentivize risk averse entities to take risks. The US is large enough that regional academies makes a lot of sense. I definitely don't want to keep things the way they are, but people are so obsessed with the pro/rel thing they don't realize what it would entail, especially given how rudderless USSF has been.
Posted on 10/11/17 at 3:02 pm to crazy4lsu
quote:
given how rudderless USSF has been.
Yet you want them to control player development in it's entirety in this country?
I can't imagine how that would be better than implementing pro/rel and lifting any restriction that clubs have on player development and team control.
Posted on 10/11/17 at 4:07 pm to LSU316
The USSF is our FA, correct? There most successful youth programs in the world are FA directed. Until the organization is in place there, it's more likely that pro/rel will lead to a situation like England or any of the numerous other countries with pro/rel and average national teams. There is literally one model that has been used in the modern era.
Posted on 10/12/17 at 1:02 pm to LSUFanHouston
quote:most are a shitshow. Teams fold left and right, they lose money playing in outdated stadiums.
soccer leagues in other countries.
The stability of the money in MLS will be our greatest asset as we eventually become one of the big leagues of the world. That stability is achieved by limiting league membership and keeping the fans you have
Posted on 10/12/17 at 1:04 pm to chalmetteowl
quote:
most are a shitshow. Teams fold left and right, they lose money playing in outdated stadiums.
The stability of the money in MLS will be our greatest asset as we eventually become one of the big leagues of the world. That stability is achieved by limiting league membership and keeping the fans you have
You are drinking the punch and are deluded as hell. Displaying the arrogance TT has been talking about on ESPN.
This post was edited on 10/12/17 at 1:13 pm
Posted on 10/12/17 at 1:15 pm to StraightCashHomey21
Other countries have pro-rel in basketball. Has that helped them one bit?
Posted on 10/12/17 at 1:18 pm to chalmetteowl
Good thing this isn't basketball
The American way works for basketball not for soccer, even then basketball around the world has raised its level of play.
The USSF set up and MLS is holding soccer back in America.
The American way works for basketball not for soccer, even then basketball around the world has raised its level of play.
The USSF set up and MLS is holding soccer back in America.
Posted on 10/12/17 at 2:35 pm to StraightCashHomey21
The pro/rep model isn't without its problems. For the franchise model to work you basically need a subsidized minor leagues. We don't have that yet.
Posted on 10/12/17 at 4:14 pm to chalmetteowl
quote:
Other countries have pro-rel in basketball. Has that helped them one bit?
Seems that many do produce a surprising amount of technically polished players relative to the small pool of players with the club model.
Posted on 10/12/17 at 4:54 pm to wm72
quote:
Seems that many do produce a surprising amount of technically polished players relative to the small pool of players with the club model.
That is a fair point, but I would argue that given the American mindset of sports, we would more often than not see clubs use money to buy players rather than give youth a shot without direct from the football association.
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