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re: Robert E. Lee has been misrepresented by regressive "historians"

Posted on 5/22/17 at 3:36 pm to
Posted by monsterballads
Make LSU Great Again
Member since Jun 2013
29272 posts
Posted on 5/22/17 at 3:36 pm to
quote:

Owning slaves was a legal practice.



still didn't make it moral
Posted by DoubleDown
New Orleans, Louisiana
Member since Oct 2008
12920 posts
Posted on 5/22/17 at 3:38 pm to
quote:

Lee was completely in it for states' rights. 100%.

This states rights argument is so played out now. Let me ask you this - ok so the South was fighting for "State Rights" - state rights for what?
Paving their own roads?
Planting their own peanuts?
Fertilizing their Peaches with Southern fertilizer?

frick no. States rights to own slaves.
Shut up with the states rights argument. It's 2017, grow up.
Posted by monsterballads
Make LSU Great Again
Member since Jun 2013
29272 posts
Posted on 5/22/17 at 3:39 pm to
quote:

States rights to own slaves.
Shut up with the states rights argument. It's 2017, grow up.


Posted by NC_Tigah
Carolinas
Member since Sep 2003
124657 posts
Posted on 5/22/17 at 3:42 pm to
quote:

This states rights argument is so played out now.
You are of course, conflating states' decisions to secede with Lee's decision to defend his state. The latter is central to this thread. Did you miss that?
This post was edited on 5/22/17 at 3:43 pm
Posted by magildachunks
Member since Oct 2006
32541 posts
Posted on 5/22/17 at 3:45 pm to
quote:

It's not the turning point, it should have been the end. Shiloh should have been the turning point if no the decisive battle



But it wasn't the end.

The defeat wasn't the beginning of the end for Lee.

Grant coming east was. Lee may have been able to rebound if Grant is not put in charge.

Unlike every other general Lee faced, Grant was a fighter. He didn't care about the press, or politics, or anything else but ending the CSA.

The Army of Northern Virginia and its leaders had not seen an opponent like Grant. And Sherman wasn't a boogeyman like Stonewall was. He was a fricking devil.

And Grant let him unleash his fury on the south like no other general had done before.

Posted by DoubleDown
New Orleans, Louisiana
Member since Oct 2008
12920 posts
Posted on 5/22/17 at 3:46 pm to
quote:

You are of course, conflating states' decisions to secede with Lee's decision to defend his state. The latter central to this thread. Did you miss that?

No.
But Lee chose wrong. He was a brilliant general, strategist and loyalist to his home state, however, HE CHOSE WRONG.

And in choosing incorrectly, we need not put him up on a pedestal. We can all acknowledge his brilliance on the battlefield and salute his service but we can do this from a Civil War Memorial site or dedication, not in the center of Parade Routes or the center of a diverse and culturally blessed city like New Orleans.
Posted by WhiskeyPapa
Member since Aug 2016
9277 posts
Posted on 5/22/17 at 3:46 pm to
quote:

No one made the southern aristocracy be averse to factories and free labor.

I'm sure that sounded better before you posted it.


No I like that.

It is why the Slave Power lost interest in the country to which they never had much loyalty. Once they lost control of the Electoral College they bailed. They lost control of the EC because new immigrants didn't want to live in a police state, which is what the South became before the war.
Posted by NC_Tigah
Carolinas
Member since Sep 2003
124657 posts
Posted on 5/22/17 at 3:46 pm to
quote:

still didn't make it moral
Judge it as you will, the Constitution was basis for the US.
Posted by WhiskeyPapa
Member since Aug 2016
9277 posts
Posted on 5/22/17 at 3:47 pm to
quote:

Judging historical figures with the morality of today is horrifically dishonest. Embarrassing even.


Yes, but slavery was condemned in Lee's time. That is why he is not a hero by any stretch.
Posted by DoubleDown
New Orleans, Louisiana
Member since Oct 2008
12920 posts
Posted on 5/22/17 at 3:47 pm to
quote:

And Grant let him unleash his fury on the south like no other general had done before.

Aye. Charleston and Atlanta areas burned like crazy. Actually Charleston burned like crazy, I think Sherman just burned while marching through Atlanta and on to the sea.
Posted by WhiskeyPapa
Member since Aug 2016
9277 posts
Posted on 5/22/17 at 3:48 pm to
quote:

Aye. Charleston and Atlanta areas burned like crazy. Actually Charleston burned like crazy, I think Sherman just burned while marching through Atlanta and on to the sea.


Nah. Actually Sherman wanted to move on, but canny President Lincoln had him stay in the Atlanta area for 2 months until the 1864 election was in the bag.
This post was edited on 5/22/17 at 3:49 pm
Posted by NC_Tigah
Carolinas
Member since Sep 2003
124657 posts
Posted on 5/22/17 at 3:49 pm to
quote:

No.
But you are.
I could point that fact out civilly, again if you'd like.

Or, on your level in this thread, I could tell you to grow the frick up.
Posted by WhiskeyPapa
Member since Aug 2016
9277 posts
Posted on 5/22/17 at 3:51 pm to
quote:

Because as did Southerners, Lincoln horribly underestimated potency of the adversary he was creating.


Southern resistance to the national authority was impotent.

The CSA didn’t really have much success on the battlefield. Federal battle deaths were 110,000, CSA battle deaths were 94,000. Since the so-called CSA was on the defensive, and the recent wide spread use of the rifled musket magnified defensive power at the expense of offensive power, those figures should show –many- more federal deaths than CSA deaths, in keeping with Napoleon’s dictum that it takes three attackers to drive off one defender. The rebels also had the advantage of interior lines.

Federal armies in the ‘West’ went pretty much from victory to victory throughout the war, capturing Forts Henry and Donelson early in 1862, occupying Nashville not long after that, driving into north Mississippi to cut the east-west rail line to Texas, driving off CSA army after army in the investment of Vicksburg, where an entire army was captured, driving the rebels out of middle Tennessee and capturing Chattanooga, inexorably advancing on and capturing Atlanta, Savannah and Columbia. The single bad check of the western federal armies was at Chickamauga.

In the eastern theater, Lee had as little success outside Virginia as various federal generals had within it. He is vastly overrated. After he wrecked his own army for offensive operations, he operated primarily on the defensive in an era when defensive technologies were dominant.

Finally, when the big plantation owners reneged on their pledge to raise food stuffs to feed the soldiers’ families, the rebel armies melted away. All that “you fought all the way Johnnie Reb’ is a lot of road apples.
Posted by NC_Tigah
Carolinas
Member since Sep 2003
124657 posts
Posted on 5/22/17 at 3:51 pm to
quote:

Yes, but slavery was condemned in Lee's time
As are guns and free speech in ours. The issue is Constitutionality.
Posted by DoubleDown
New Orleans, Louisiana
Member since Oct 2008
12920 posts
Posted on 5/22/17 at 3:57 pm to
quote:

As are guns and free speech in ours. The issue is Constitutionality.

Dude. Seriously.
One is an object the other are words.
Slavery was owning people.

I guess we just don't see eye to eye on this topic.

My question is I fully understand the statue of P.T. Beauregard but why was Robert E. Lee or Jefferson Davis even put up here? Serious question. I know Davis died here but that was on a boat after he accidentally fell ill. Neither Lee nor Davis had ties to New Orleans to my knowledge. Did Lee even step foot in the state?
New Orleans was technically a part of the C.S.A for what - 13 months, if that?
This post was edited on 5/22/17 at 3:59 pm
Posted by WhiskeyPapa
Member since Aug 2016
9277 posts
Posted on 5/22/17 at 3:57 pm to
quote:

Yes, but slavery was condemned in Lee's time As are guns and free speech in ours.

The issue is Constitutionality.


Everything the Nazis did to the Jews was legal.

The issue is morality and the mores of the day. Slavery was abolished in the British Empire in 1833 and in Russia in 1861. The Republican Party was founded in this country to oppose slavery generally. By those lights we can and should condemn Robert Edward lee.
This post was edited on 5/22/17 at 3:59 pm
Posted by Crowknowsbest
Member since May 2012
25901 posts
Posted on 5/22/17 at 3:58 pm to
quote:

Southern resistance to the national authority was impotent.

That's an absurd thing to say. They fought a larger and better-supplied force for 4 years and managed to kill 110,000 people in battle, per your own post.

Thankfully, they lost, but they were far from impotent.
Posted by NC_Tigah
Carolinas
Member since Sep 2003
124657 posts
Posted on 5/22/17 at 3:59 pm to
quote:

Southern resistance to the national authority was impotent.
We lost more Americans in the Civil War than in WWI, WWII, Korea, Vietnam, and the Gulf Wars combined. Union losses significantly outstripped Confederate losses. Your concept of impotency is bizarre.
Posted by WhiskeyPapa
Member since Aug 2016
9277 posts
Posted on 5/22/17 at 4:00 pm to
quote:

Southern resistance to the national authority was impotent.

That's an absurd thing to say. They fought a larger and better-supplied force for 4 years and managed to kill 110,000 people in battle, per your own post.


When you have tactical outcomes like Fredericksburg, Gettysburg, Cold Harbor and on and on, it should have been impossible to defeat the insurgency. But it soon collapsed.

Posted by NC_Tigah
Carolinas
Member since Sep 2003
124657 posts
Posted on 5/22/17 at 4:01 pm to
quote:

Everything the Nazis did to the Jews was legal.
Actually, no, it wasn't.

But it was politically correct.
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