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Posted on 3/7/17 at 12:14 pm to Tigerdev
quote:
For that matter, i dont think England spends too much time honoring those revolutionaries...
But they made a statue about it??
Also there are statues of Lee at West Point too. Ironically, he was the commandant there...
Posted on 3/7/17 at 12:19 pm to TitleistProV1X
quote:You keep bossing me around with your opinion being the object of the game, like I give a shite when your opinions on things change.
Please show specifically where my opinion has changed on this subject.
Posted on 3/7/17 at 12:25 pm to NYNolaguy1
You seem to misunderstand. All I am acknowledging is that in the eyes of *some* people they were justified. However, having sympathizers doesn't usually mean being honored in the town square.
Posted on 3/7/17 at 12:30 pm to WhiskeyPapa
There is one bad fly in the buttermilk in all this veneration of the so-called CSA.
The CSA didn’t really have much success on the battlefield. Federal battle deaths were 110,000, CSA battle deaths were 94,000. Since the so-called CSA was on the defensive, and the recent wide spread use of the rifled musket magnified defensive power at the expense of offensive power, those figures should show –many- more federal deaths than CSA deaths, in keeping with Napoleon’s dictum that it takes three attackers to drive off one defender. The rebels also had the advantage of interior lines.
Federal armies in the ‘West’ went pretty much from victory to victory throughout the war, capturing Forts Henry and Donelson early in 1862, occupying Nashville not long after that, driving into north Mississippi to cut the east-west rail line to Texas, driving off CSA army after army in the investment of Vicksburg, where an entire army was captured, driving the rebels out of middle Tennessee and capturing Chattanooga, inexorably advancing on and capturing Atlanta, Savannah and Columbia. The single bad check of the western federal armies was at Chickamauga.
In the eastern theater, Lee had as little success outside Virginia as various federal generals had within it. He is vastly overrated. After he wrecked his own army for offensive operations, he operated primarily on the defensive in an era when defensive technologies were dominant.
Finally, when the big plantation owners reneged on their pledge to raise food stuffs to feed the soldiers’ families, the rebel armies melted away. All that “you fought all the way Johnnie Reb’ is a lot of road apples.
One thing to keep in mind about the so-called CSA is that it never really existed. The various rebel states passed secession documents – you can do the same thing. But since they were no more able than you to give them force, the so-called CSA was just what President Lincoln called them: Combinations too powerful to be dealt with by the US Marshals.
As the so-called CSA was busy collapsing and its armies were melting away, President Lincoln was criticized for treating with the legislature of Virginia. He had not done that he said, he dealt with a group who styled themselves as the legislature of Virginia, because they had power to effect events.
The CSA didn’t really have much success on the battlefield. Federal battle deaths were 110,000, CSA battle deaths were 94,000. Since the so-called CSA was on the defensive, and the recent wide spread use of the rifled musket magnified defensive power at the expense of offensive power, those figures should show –many- more federal deaths than CSA deaths, in keeping with Napoleon’s dictum that it takes three attackers to drive off one defender. The rebels also had the advantage of interior lines.
Federal armies in the ‘West’ went pretty much from victory to victory throughout the war, capturing Forts Henry and Donelson early in 1862, occupying Nashville not long after that, driving into north Mississippi to cut the east-west rail line to Texas, driving off CSA army after army in the investment of Vicksburg, where an entire army was captured, driving the rebels out of middle Tennessee and capturing Chattanooga, inexorably advancing on and capturing Atlanta, Savannah and Columbia. The single bad check of the western federal armies was at Chickamauga.
In the eastern theater, Lee had as little success outside Virginia as various federal generals had within it. He is vastly overrated. After he wrecked his own army for offensive operations, he operated primarily on the defensive in an era when defensive technologies were dominant.
Finally, when the big plantation owners reneged on their pledge to raise food stuffs to feed the soldiers’ families, the rebel armies melted away. All that “you fought all the way Johnnie Reb’ is a lot of road apples.
One thing to keep in mind about the so-called CSA is that it never really existed. The various rebel states passed secession documents – you can do the same thing. But since they were no more able than you to give them force, the so-called CSA was just what President Lincoln called them: Combinations too powerful to be dealt with by the US Marshals.
As the so-called CSA was busy collapsing and its armies were melting away, President Lincoln was criticized for treating with the legislature of Virginia. He had not done that he said, he dealt with a group who styled themselves as the legislature of Virginia, because they had power to effect events.
Posted on 3/7/17 at 12:32 pm to Tigerdev
quote:
We are propping up symbols of treason.
And losers. The rebel armies were not defeated in battle. They melted away and went home.
Posted on 3/7/17 at 12:34 pm to Tigerdev
quote:
However, having sympathizers doesn't usually mean being honored in the town square.
We should put up a George Washington Carver statute for good measure. Real titan.
Posted on 3/7/17 at 12:39 pm to NYNolaguy1
quote:
So just to be clear, you have a problem with the Confederates even though they may have been justified?
There is no chance the rebels can be covered in rectitude.
Robert E. Lee himself called secession revolution. And it was totally unwarranted.
"As an American citizen, I take great pride in my country, her prosperity and her institutions, and would defend any State if her rights were invaded. But I can anticipate no greater calamity for the country than the dissolution of the Union. It would be an accumulation of all the evils we complain of, and I am willing to sacrifice everything but honor for its preservation. I hope, therefore, that all constitutional means will be exhausted before there is a resort to force. Secession is nothing but revolution."
LINK
"Our popular Government has often been called an experiment. Two points in it our people have already settled-the successful establishing and the successful administering of it. One still remains-its successful maintenance against a formidable internal attempt to overthrow it. It is now for them to demonstrate to the world that those who can fairly carry an election can also suppress a rebellion; that ballots are the rightful and peaceful successors of bullets, and that when ballots have fairly and constitutionally decided there can be no successful appeal back to bullets; that there can be no successful appeal except to ballots themselves at succeeding elections. Such will be a great lesson of peace, teaching men that what they can not take by an election neither can they take it by a war; teaching all the folly of being the beginners of a war."
- A. Lincoln 7/4/61
LINK
This post was edited on 3/7/17 at 12:41 pm
Posted on 3/7/17 at 12:57 pm to WhiskeyPapa
quote:
There is no chance the rebels can be covered in rectitude.
Robert E. Lee himself called secession revolution. And it was totally unwarranted.
I would agree with this, however, my point was to ask him if he thought they were justified in calling for revolution.
Posted on 3/7/17 at 1:06 pm to MorgusTheMagnificent
Good. No reason to be still venerating "heroes" of a white supremacist government in the 21st century. Let 'em put these statues in a museum where they belong.
Posted on 3/7/17 at 1:12 pm to NYNolaguy1
quote:
There is no chance the rebels can be covered in rectitude.
Robert E. Lee himself called secession revolution.
And it was totally unwarranted.
I would agree with this, however, my point was to ask him if he thought they were justified in calling for revolution.
I can't imagine how anyone could think they were. Slavery would have continued indefinitely with no federal power to affect it.
There is this great story from the beginning of the war. As soon as Virginia published its secession documents three black men stole a boat and rowed over to Fortress Monroe.
Very soon, I think the next day, a CSA colonel under a flag of true appeared and asked for the return of these men, who had been given sanctuary.
The Union commander asked, “Under what authority do you say they should be returned to you”?
The Rebel officer answered, “Under the Fugitive Slave law of 1850.”
The Union Commander said, “You have renounced federal law. It doesn’t apply to you.”
How fricking stupid can you be?
The rebels were stupid; there should have been no way to defeat them. This was the opinion of many European observers.
But they still fricked up and lost.
Posted on 3/7/17 at 1:24 pm to WhiskeyPapa
quote:
The Rebel officer answered, “Under the Fugitive Slave law of 1850.”
The Union Commander said, “You have renounced federal law. It doesn’t apply to you.”
Then on what grounds did the Union engage the south during the war?
Posted on 3/7/17 at 4:03 pm to NYNolaguy1
quote:Fort Sumter was federal property.
Then on what grounds did the Union engage the south during the war?
Posted on 3/7/17 at 4:40 pm to CaptChandler
quote:It's quite clear who is triggered by the statues.
Triggered over fricking statues.
Posted on 3/7/17 at 4:43 pm to LSU Patrick
quote:You'll be fine, snowflake. Buck up.
Seriously though, this is a sad day for New Orleans and the US. This was one of the last great historical cities left in this country, and the soviet style progressives are about to dismantle its distinctiveness and charm piece by piece.
Posted on 3/7/17 at 4:44 pm to NYNolaguy1
quote:Link to you losing said freedoms because a city is MOVING some statues to another location?
Freedom of thought and freedom to remember are too dangerous for a free society to have.
Posted on 3/7/17 at 4:46 pm to Y.A. Tittle
quote:Fun fact: when the King heard that Washington had traveled to Annapolis after the war to cede his basically god-like status back to the civilians, the King said something like "if that's true, then he's the greatest statesman who ever lived."
There's a statue of George Washington in Trafalgar Square in London.
This post was edited on 3/7/17 at 4:49 pm
Posted on 3/7/17 at 4:47 pm to TigersFan64
quote:
Good. No reason to be still venerating "heroes" of a white supremacist government in the 21st century. Let 'em put these statues in a museum where they belong.
I'm ok with this for the most part. Jackson Square is my exception. The man was a POTUS and war hero. Are Jefferson and Washington next?
They owned slaves and one balled his slave.
Posted on 3/7/17 at 4:56 pm to LSU alum wannabe
quote:What if they were? Would you really care?
Are Jefferson and Washington next?
Posted on 3/7/17 at 4:57 pm to Big Scrub TX
quote:The level of self-unawareness exhibited by those who would rather the statues not come down is amazing.
It's quite clear who is triggered by the statues.
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