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How do we change the culture of bad decision-making?

Posted on 2/13/17 at 11:07 am
Posted by SlowFlowPro
With populists, expect populism
Member since Jan 2004
465762 posts
Posted on 2/13/17 at 11:07 am
serious thread not related to Trump or PC/SJW culture

i was skimming this article about how lots of activities "cost more" if you're poor. it's a relatively benign piece, but the comments get pretty hot and heavy.

quote:

Eh, there are some correlations but this doesn’t prove causation. A lot of poor people are poor due to bad decisions and/or lack of forward thinking, such as not purchasing toilet paper in bulk or on sale.

When the credit card scanner breaks and you have to go inside to pay for gas, who do you see inside buying lottery tickets and basic items you could get for half the price at a grocery store? Poor people.

Those people aren’t poor because the system is set up to make them buy expensive TP or because their car insurance is more than other people’s. There will be exceptions, of course, but in general people are poor because they make bad decisions (which is probably exactly the reason their car insurance is more).


i agree with that essentially 100%. the general response to that comment is somewhat repetitive, but can be boiled down to this

quote:

I’d hate to call you an a-hole, but I will anyways.

Most of the time it’s not “bad” decisions. You wouldn’t know you’re making a bad decision unless you were properly educated on what is or isn’t.


and this

quote:

Sure there are people who are poor because of bad decision making, but there are also a lot of people who are poor due to a number of outside structural factors that make transcending poverty very difficult (including some pointed out in this article). And even that characterization of what constitutes “poor” decision making is often more a lack of options.


and i get it. the question is how do we go about addressing these issues of education and culture? as a follow up, how do we do this without being called assholes? there is this belief by those who defend the poor that either there is some inherent cultural value in this life system or that it's not proper to insult/criticize the people who taught these values to their children and proliferated the culture. that makes it seem almost impossible to me to break this cycle. if we can't point out the failures and these failures are protected, then there is no way to stop these failures from promoting the very same culture/mindset that turned them into failures onto others (namely their children)
Posted by CoachChappy
Member since May 2013
34081 posts
Posted on 2/13/17 at 11:08 am to
quote:

How do we change the culture of bad decision-making?

Stop rewarding it

ETA example: If you have 1 baby, we (the government/American people) will help you out. When you have your 2nd-10th, you are on your own.
ETA2: The above example is for single mothers on welfare.
This post was edited on 2/13/17 at 12:04 pm
Posted by CorporateTiger
Member since Aug 2014
10700 posts
Posted on 2/13/17 at 11:09 am to
Well actually teaching basic financial competence in middle school/early high school would help.

Also structuring the welfare that we currently have to provide (I don't agree with it, but it also isn't changing) in a way that rewards response decisions would help.
Posted by BigEdLSU
All around the south
Member since Sep 2010
20360 posts
Posted on 2/13/17 at 11:11 am to
I was present for a conversation between some influential Baton Rouge people Saturday...

You'd be surprised how similar their wants are to yours. They want trade programs in schools like Zachary and denham springs have. Reward your kids at the top of the class with small business loans, stop tying funding to how many "special" kids you have diagnosed.
Posted by phillypie
South Carolina
Member since Nov 2016
168 posts
Posted on 2/13/17 at 11:13 am to
quote:

the question is how do we go about addressing these issues of education and culture?


My gut tells me to start with school curriculum. I feel like I didn't learn shiite in grade school when it came to surviving in the real world.

But then again, these are probably demographics that don't really take school seriously anyways
Posted by rocket31
Member since Jan 2008
41887 posts
Posted on 2/13/17 at 11:15 am to
Ubi for all

Let em rot if bad decisions are made
Posted by geauxtigahs87
Louisiana
Member since Dec 2008
26663 posts
Posted on 2/13/17 at 11:15 am to
Before we can even have that discussion, many on the left need to accept that bad decision-making is the primary reason why most poor people are poor. Or at the least, just entertain the idea before acting appalled and throwing out the usual "you heartless racist" responses.

Did you see the Shapiro speech to the HS where he told the students that if your parents are poor their entire lives its probably because they're bad with money?
Posted by CelticDog
Member since Apr 2015
42867 posts
Posted on 2/13/17 at 11:16 am to
Great idea coach chappy. Church will not stand for it.

We should give a 49k deduction for kid one. Net zero if 2nd child. Pay 10k extra tax for 3rd kid. 25k for #4.

Posted by SlowFlowPro
With populists, expect populism
Member since Jan 2004
465762 posts
Posted on 2/13/17 at 11:16 am to
quote:

But then again, these are probably demographics that don't really take school seriously anyways

yes

schools aren't an option because the lack of valuing of education is a big reason why the poverty keeps perpetuating

and the powers that be will never let you run a lower SES school in a way that allows force social stratification of the students for the same reasons of the "a-hole" logic. there is this emotional reaction to being negative towards a lower SES person. creating a school structure that will magnify this person just isn't in the cards for emotional-led thinkers.
Posted by goldennugget
NIL Ruined College Sports
Member since Jul 2013
26060 posts
Posted on 2/13/17 at 11:17 am to
End welfare and handouts

Safety nets run by private organizations
Posted by SlowFlowPro
With populists, expect populism
Member since Jan 2004
465762 posts
Posted on 2/13/17 at 11:17 am to
quote:

Ubi for all


you want UBI and utopian health care?

how much money do you think we have, bro?
Posted by AggieDub14
Oil Baron
Member since Oct 2015
15081 posts
Posted on 2/13/17 at 11:17 am to
How are people successful?
-Good Decision Making

How do people learn to make good decisions?
-Experience

How do people gain experience?
-Bad Decision Making
Posted by CorporateTiger
Member since Aug 2014
10700 posts
Posted on 2/13/17 at 11:19 am to
The concept behind no child left behind is a lot of feel good nonsense.

The simple truth is that due to learning disabilities, attitudes, homelife failures, or just bad luck, some kids are always left behind.
Posted by SlowFlowPro
With populists, expect populism
Member since Jan 2004
465762 posts
Posted on 2/13/17 at 11:19 am to
quote:

Before we can even have that discussion, many on the left need to accept that bad decision-making is the primary reason why most poor people are poor. Or at the least, just entertain the idea before acting appalled and throwing out the usual "you heartless racist" responses.

it doesn't have to involve racism. you get those same emotional responses when dealing with the same issues in poor whites

but i agree this has to be the first step before we can have a discussion about poverty.
Posted by Brosef Stalin
Member since Dec 2011
41570 posts
Posted on 2/13/17 at 11:20 am to
quote:

there is this belief by those who defend the poor that either there is some inherent cultural value in this life system or that it's not proper to insult/criticize the people who taught these values to their children and proliferated the culture.

Some people are content to live in a trailer and live off frozen dinners and soda. If they are happy and not hurting anyone, so what? Not even wants to live in a mansion.
Posted by kingbob
Sorrento, LA
Member since Nov 2010
69286 posts
Posted on 2/13/17 at 11:21 am to
There is an easy way that typically always works: let it hurt.

Why do big banks and investors make risky decisions that ultimately resort in the collapse of the economy? Because they know they are too big to fail. They know the government will bail them out. If they knew that no one would catch them if they failed, they would be much more cautious.

Why do developers keep throwing up apartment complexes everywhere when there is already a massive glut of empty housing? They know the government will bail them out with section 8. Section 8 acts as an artificial price floor and a lifeboat for residential developers. If they cannot get enough tenets at the market rate, they can turn to section 8 for a garanteed check to fill their vacancies.

Why do irresponsible people have so many kids while responsible people do not? They're not paying the same price per kid. Having children, feeding them, schooling them, and paying for their healthcare can be very very expensive, unless you're poor and dependant, then it's free.
We pay these mothers more per kid, creating an incentive to have ever more kids!

We not only pull benefits from people who work too many hours or save too much money, but we then confiscate what they saved and make them pay it back to the government.

WE ARE PAYING PEOPLE TO MAKE BAD CHOICES BY INSULATING THEM FROM NEGATIVE CONSEQUENCES!

There are some children who are born without the ability to feel pain. This is terrifying to parents because they can injure themselves, but the lack of a pain response means they are unlikely to react to their injury in a way that limits it. For example, if you touch a hot stove, it burns you, so you pull your hand away before it gets injured particularly badly. A child who cannot feel pain touches the hot stove and leaves it there. He cannot feel that he is being damaged, so he does not stop the damage. His hand burns until it is injured potentially beyond repair because there is no pain to motivate him to change his dangerous behavior.

Until people feel the pain of their poor decisions, they will continue to make them.
Posted by rocket31
Member since Jan 2008
41887 posts
Posted on 2/13/17 at 11:22 am to
Oh. My bad. We need more walls and military spending. ISIS is raping our wives, etc


There is plenty of money to support both health care and a UBI

Ubi would likely save us millions if all other entitlements were eliminated
Posted by SlowFlowPro
With populists, expect populism
Member since Jan 2004
465762 posts
Posted on 2/13/17 at 11:23 am to
quote:

If they are happy and not hurting anyone, so what?

i don't care what people choose to do with their life as long as it doesn't affect others

but we have a robust welfare system that these people take advantage of. it hurts you and me every day via unnecessary taxation
Posted by SlowFlowPro
With populists, expect populism
Member since Jan 2004
465762 posts
Posted on 2/13/17 at 11:24 am to
quote:

Oh. My bad. We need more walls and military spending.

the wall is a drop in the bucket compared to everything else

our military should be decreased but it's like 1/4 of our budget

quote:

Ubi would likely save us millions if all other entitlements were eliminated

how much income do you plan on giving and to whom, exactly?
Posted by buckeye_vol
Member since Jul 2014
35373 posts
Posted on 2/13/17 at 11:24 am to
Incentivize good decision-making, rather than the other way around.

It's been shown time and time again, that the most effective way to diminish poor behaviors is to reinforce the alternative, positive behaviors.
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