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Dennis Prager on why poverty does NOT cause crime

Posted on 11/18/14 at 11:25 am
Posted by L.A.
The Mojave Desert
Member since Aug 2003
62718 posts
Posted on 11/18/14 at 11:25 am
quote:

My paternal grandparents were extremely poor immigrants from Russia. They lived in a small apartment in Brooklyn where they raised four children, none of whom, of course, ever had their own room. Moreover, my grandfather was a tailor, and as such made little during normal years, and next to nothing during the Great Depression.

They were considerably poorer than the vast majority of Americans who lived below the poverty line as it existed when I was in college and graduate school. And they would have regarded most of those designated poor today as middle class, if not rich by the standards of their day.

That is worth remembering whenever an American claims that violent crime in America is caused by poverty. The poor who commit murder, rape and robbery are not only not starving, they have far more material things than the word “poverty” suggests.

quote:

According to a recent Census Bureau report, 80.9 percent of households below the poverty level have cellphones.

When the left talks about the poor, they don’t mention these statistics because what matters to the left is inequality, not poverty.

But that is another subject. Our subject is the question: Given these statistics, why do the poor who commit violent crime do so? Clearly it is not because they lack the basic necessities of life.

Now I didn’t know any of these statistics back in college and graduate school. So how did I know that “poverty causes crime” was a lie?

I thought about my grandparents, and I could not imagine my grandfather robbing anyone, let alone raping or murdering.

Why not? Because it was unimaginable. They were people whose values rendered such behaviors all but impossible.

But there was another reason.

I was as certain as one could be that if I were poor in America, I wouldn’t rob, rape or murder.

Which leads me to wonder about people who believe that “poverty causes crime.”

LINK
Posted by Jake88
Member since Apr 2005
71865 posts
Posted on 11/18/14 at 11:31 am to
It was easier to be truly impoverished when you were a first generation immigrant back then. The people who are impoverished now are so usually due to their penchant for poor choices. Those choices also include an increased likelihood of choosing to shortcut your way through theft, etc.
Posted by KeyserSoze999
Member since Dec 2009
10608 posts
Posted on 11/18/14 at 11:34 am to
crime causes poverty. Stealing from others via government is a crime.
Posted by Hawkeye95
Member since Dec 2013
20293 posts
Posted on 11/18/14 at 11:35 am to
Poverty does not cause crime, lack of opportunity causes crime.

Posted by Jake88
Member since Apr 2005
71865 posts
Posted on 11/18/14 at 11:37 am to
Wrong. Lack of choosing to make use of one's opportunities causes crime.
Posted by Tchefuncte Tiger
Bat'n Rudge
Member since Oct 2004
58959 posts
Posted on 11/18/14 at 11:40 am to
quote:

Poverty does not cause crime, lack of opportunity causes crime.


Who doesn't have an opportunity?
Posted by Hawkeye95
Member since Dec 2013
20293 posts
Posted on 11/18/14 at 11:41 am to
quote:

Who doesn't have an opportunity?


there are many people who believe they do not have an opportunity
Posted by L.A.
The Mojave Desert
Member since Aug 2003
62718 posts
Posted on 11/18/14 at 11:43 am to
quote:

there are many people who believe they do not have an opportunity
An opportunity to do what?
Posted by KeyserSoze999
Member since Dec 2009
10608 posts
Posted on 11/18/14 at 11:44 am to
either that or their own laziness clouds the opportunities to such a degree that they don't recognize it
Posted by SlowFlowPro
Simple Solutions to Complex Probs
Member since Jan 2004
435758 posts
Posted on 11/18/14 at 11:45 am to
quote:

Poverty does not cause crime, lack of opportunity causes crime.

i don't disagree with the semantics

lack of opportunity causes both poverty and crime. i don't think people will argue that. but the issue of "lack of opportunity" means we have to look at why there is such a variable. it's a shift in analysis.

then we get back to why groups have a lack of opportunity. it's impossible to do a meta analysis with one answer, b/c different groups will have different blocks. that's fair

but we can look at factors that increase the chance of lack of opportunity. while this may not have an effect, it's setting them up for potential failure.

i will explain

if a person does not value education and does not become educated, they limit their opportunities and create a much more likely scenario that they will find themselves in an area without opportunity.

can they avoid poverty and crime? certainly. for example, coal mining was a great opportunity for people without education. manufacturing was another avenue. in south LA, the oilfield is ripe for these persons to become upper middle class.

however, these primary-secondary economic opportunities are not stable (look at what happens when mines dry up, factories close, or the price of oil drops). if the bottom falls out, the same person who limited his/her own opportunities finds itself in a bad scenario.

this stability/lower-level opportunity is the part that makes a meta, single conclusion impossible. however, there are cultural/behavioral traits that minimize the chance of lack of opportunity. education being the first. lack of criminal record being the second. work history being the third. rejection of "mainstream" cultural norms is in there, too.
This post was edited on 11/18/14 at 1:31 pm
Posted by Big Scrub TX
Member since Dec 2013
34708 posts
Posted on 11/18/14 at 11:46 am to
quote:

My paternal grandparents were extremely poor immigrants from Russia. They lived in a small apartment in Brooklyn where they raised four children, none of whom, of course, ever had their own room. Moreover, my grandfather was a tailor, and as such made little during normal years, and next to nothing during the Great Depression. They were considerably poorer than the vast majority of Americans who lived below the poverty line as it existed when I was in college and graduate school. And they would have regarded most of those designated poor today as middle class, if not rich by the standards of their day.


The part that is blaringly omitted is that Prager's family was white. At that exact same time as when his grandparents were making good, black American citizens were being routinely terrorized by their own government and fellow citizens. Black American citizens were being intentionally denied the pursuits of the very same things that Prager's grandparents were able to take as givens. Hell, black Americans might not have even been allowed to live in that same small apartment in Brooklyn. And they didn't have the luxury of just melting into the population after 1 generation, as their black skin remained an obvious fact of life.
Posted by SlowFlowPro
Simple Solutions to Complex Probs
Member since Jan 2004
435758 posts
Posted on 11/18/14 at 11:54 am to
quote:

And they didn't have the luxury of just melting into the population after 1 generation, as their black skin remained an obvious fact of life.

so asian traits wash away in a generation?

someobdy tell O-Ren Ishii!!
Posted by Hawkeye95
Member since Dec 2013
20293 posts
Posted on 11/18/14 at 11:55 am to
quote:

if a person does not value education and does not become educated, they limit their opportunities and create a much more likely scenario that they will find themselves in an area without opportunity.


its more complicated than that, b.c its not that the kid doesn't value education, its that his parents do not value education.

and the reality is, education is no longer a get out of poor card free.
Posted by SlowFlowPro
Simple Solutions to Complex Probs
Member since Jan 2004
435758 posts
Posted on 11/18/14 at 11:59 am to
quote:

b.c its not that the kid doesn't value education, its that his parents do not value education.

at some point you have to display blame. if you blame the parents, their defenders will shed blame to the grandparents

i avoid this by talking about it in terms of values/culture. it doesn't need a person to directly blame

quote:

education is no longer a get out of poor card free.

no it's not. that means the people who willingly choose to be uneducated will segregate themselves behind economically further
Posted by Big Scrub TX
Member since Dec 2013
34708 posts
Posted on 11/18/14 at 12:04 pm to
quote:

so asian traits wash away in a generation?


No, but as you know, Asians of that time period were not subjected to anywhere near the level of terror and disenfranchisement.
Posted by L.A.
The Mojave Desert
Member since Aug 2003
62718 posts
Posted on 11/18/14 at 12:07 pm to
quote:

No, but as you know, Asians of that time period were not subjected to anywhere near the level of terror and disenfranchisement.
Let's assume the accuracy of that statement. What does that have to do with a poor person committing crimes in 2014?
Posted by PrimeTime Money
Houston, Texas, USA
Member since Nov 2012
27519 posts
Posted on 11/18/14 at 12:13 pm to
quote:

at some point you have to display blame. if you blame the parents, their defenders will shed blame to the grandparents
And that's why it's so hard to escape poverty. It's a cycle perpetuated by generations.
Posted by Ace Midnight
Between sanity and madness
Member since Dec 2006
91238 posts
Posted on 11/18/14 at 12:13 pm to
quote:

The people who are impoverished now are so usually due to their penchant for poor choices.


They're screened in and out, so to speak, so that's true - there are still poor white ethnic neighborhoods, but people that got out, typically assimilated, although you will see the occasional even upper middle class community of Jews, Russians, Italian, etc., in various places, particularly in the Northeast.

On the other hand, the black middle class has been growing, slowly but steadily - and to be fair to blacks, generally, there were legal, institutional barriers to their advancement not present in the unofficial bias against Irish, Italian, Eastern European immigrants, etc. And, it must be conceded that blacks started "in the hole" so to speak, with nothing but the clothes on their back, no education and no avenues of advancement.

While many immigrants came here from Europe and went straight into manufacturing - blacks were predominantly in agriculture for 50 to 75 years after Emancipation and only slowly trickled out to cities in the early 20th Century. Even then, they struggled to find a place - you see residuals of that in the train porters - one of the few avenues of advancement to middle class open to blacks, they jealously guarded entry into the profession and even today, in some places, you'll see the grandsons and great-grandsons of porters from 70, 100 years ago - the family names continue to persist.

But, it is happening today - blacks are moving more and more into the suburbs in Chicago, Atlanta, the NE, Washington, D.C., etc. and, at some point, there will be a critical mass that realizes - "We have more in common with our white suburban neighbors than we do the people in the hood, period."

That will be the next major political paradigm shift.
This post was edited on 11/18/14 at 12:14 pm
Posted by TN Bhoy
San Antonio, TX
Member since Apr 2010
60589 posts
Posted on 11/18/14 at 12:14 pm to
quote:

Asians of that time period were not subjected to anywhere near the level of terror and disenfranchisement.






Your historical illiteracy is hilarious.
Posted by PrimeTime Money
Houston, Texas, USA
Member since Nov 2012
27519 posts
Posted on 11/18/14 at 12:15 pm to
What about Hispanics? They weren't treated like blacks, and as a group they are just as poor.
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