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How sold are we on Grimes and his zone blocking scheme?
Posted on 10/7/14 at 7:03 pm
Posted on 10/7/14 at 7:03 pm
My dad played G/C for LSU from 86-90. He was recruited by Arnparger and played for him and Archer. Just finished talking to him about the Auburn game and all he kept asking me was what's going on with the OLine?
I said well we have Grimes who is new and uses a zone blocking scheme. He was agast, and talked about how he had spoken with Mike Blanchard I believe it was who took his number when he graduated and played for Hallman. Told my dad about the zone blocking Hallman and staff was using and he said how terrible it was.
Dad goes on to say zone doesn't work because people hesitate, you step right or left and no one is there what do you do? He said you put a man on a man and hit the fricker in the mouth. Of course he also played for John Curtis and we all know JT loves to pound the rock, 3 1/2 yds a play.
So is this zone scheme really right for what Miles wants to do? Seems like we should be more man on man smash mouth nasty.
:inb4subtlebrag:
I said well we have Grimes who is new and uses a zone blocking scheme. He was agast, and talked about how he had spoken with Mike Blanchard I believe it was who took his number when he graduated and played for Hallman. Told my dad about the zone blocking Hallman and staff was using and he said how terrible it was.
Dad goes on to say zone doesn't work because people hesitate, you step right or left and no one is there what do you do? He said you put a man on a man and hit the fricker in the mouth. Of course he also played for John Curtis and we all know JT loves to pound the rock, 3 1/2 yds a play.
So is this zone scheme really right for what Miles wants to do? Seems like we should be more man on man smash mouth nasty.
:inb4subtlebrag:
Posted on 10/7/14 at 7:08 pm to WalkingTurtles
quote:
all he kept asking me was what's going on with the OLine
Just curious ... why was your Dad, who played OL for LSU asking YOU what was going on with the OL? Does he not watch the games?
Posted on 10/7/14 at 7:08 pm to WalkingTurtles
quote:
Dad goes on to say zone doesn't work because people hesitate, you step right or left and no one is there what do you do? He said you put a man on a man and hit the fricker in the mouth. Of course he also played for John Curtis and we all know JT loves to pound the rock, 3 1/2 yds a play.
If your Dad is saying that zone blocking schemes can't be successful, he doesn't know what he's talking about.
Posted on 10/7/14 at 7:10 pm to 1984Tiger
quote:
Just curious ... why was your Dad, who played OL for LSU asking YOU what was going on with the OL? Does he not watch the games?
Right. The Dad had to be told by his son that they were running a zone blocking scheme…and then turns into the expert witness in the same story.
Posted on 10/7/14 at 7:10 pm to 1984Tiger
Having coached a little football at high school and junior levels, and being someone who watches a ton of it, he can't because he works he always like to defer to my thoughts. He's a great dad. Also it wasn't like I can't understand it but more like rhetorical what's happening.
Posted on 10/7/14 at 7:12 pm to moneyg
quote:
If your Dad is saying that zone blocking schemes can't be successful, he doesn't know what he's talking about.
This.
Posted on 10/7/14 at 7:13 pm to moneyg
A lot of butt hurt in this thread......... Zone blocking schemes have worked for many teams, it doesn't seem conducive for what we are trying to do.
Example Grimes scheme encourages double team down lineman and then breaking off to the next level. But what happens when the first lineman takes the guy down, like against Wisconsin then Pocic hesitates cause he suppose to chip the DT then advance but because he does this another LB runs by him and makes the tackle.
Example Grimes scheme encourages double team down lineman and then breaking off to the next level. But what happens when the first lineman takes the guy down, like against Wisconsin then Pocic hesitates cause he suppose to chip the DT then advance but because he does this another LB runs by him and makes the tackle.
Posted on 10/7/14 at 7:15 pm to moneyg
quote:
If your Dad is saying that zone blocking schemes can't be successful, he doesn't know what he's talking about.
ETA: I do think that backs have to be coached to run in a zone blocking scheme. They have to learn to read the blocks and plant-go. Eddie Lacy is masterful at it. Our backs seem to want to run to a designated gap as quickly as possible. Requires a little more skill I think.
This post was edited on 10/7/14 at 7:19 pm
Posted on 10/7/14 at 7:17 pm to Mohican
Well explain to me how zone blocking has benefitted us and how it correlates to our offense? Please be specific and just quote?
Posted on 10/7/14 at 7:23 pm to WalkingTurtles
Frankly..in my case.. I do not know one from the other, so I will not discuss that; however, since we were supposed to have the best OL in the SEC if not the country, and we have very young QBs,...and knowing that the OL is vital to a young QB..... I NEVER WOULD HAVE PICKED THIS ONE AS THE SEASON IN WHICH TO MAKE CHANGES.
...that's where the logic does not make sense.
...that's where the logic does not make sense.
Posted on 10/7/14 at 7:23 pm to WalkingTurtles
In zone blocking schemes, you're blocking a hole and not a man. So if no one shows in your hole, you look back inside for the next threat, if none is present, you move on to the next level. The thought process has to go through instanteanously. With a new system, it isn't a surprise that some are quicker to catching on to the concept than others.
Posted on 10/7/14 at 7:26 pm to 7thWardTiger
Exactly great post 7th. Our guys are struggling and my post was really trying to point out the why.
Denver Broncos used zone blocking to win 2 Super Bowls, they had an experienced OLine though. So it works I'll agree.
My point was with the running plays we run, straight ahead dives around either side of our guards, we should be man on man blocking. The zone to me would be better if we ran more counters and misdirections. We don't though.
Denver Broncos used zone blocking to win 2 Super Bowls, they had an experienced OLine though. So it works I'll agree.
My point was with the running plays we run, straight ahead dives around either side of our guards, we should be man on man blocking. The zone to me would be better if we ran more counters and misdirections. We don't though.
This post was edited on 10/7/14 at 7:29 pm
Posted on 10/7/14 at 7:29 pm to 7thWardTiger
quote:
In zone blocking schemes, you're blocking a hole and not a man. So if no one shows in your hole, you look back inside for the next threat, if none is present, you move on to the next level. The thought process has to go through instanteanously. With a new system, it isn't a surprise that some are quicker to catching on to the concept than others
excuse the ignorance, but does that not "use up some time" for the lack of a better term, thus allowing a step or two for the opponent before we can get to them ?
it seems a man to man would more efficient time wise...once again .. just trying to learn the benefits
Posted on 10/7/14 at 7:34 pm to rbdallas
LINK
This breaks down how Grimes specifically recruits and coaches his OLine. His style and take on zone.
The timing is critical because it calls for double teaming and quick releases. Look at the Wisconsin tape to see our OLine wasting time chipping in on double teams and being late on the 2nd level guy resulting in a lot busted run plays. There blocking seemed forced and scripted, I definitely think we need more man on man blocking and let our running backs make the plays on the next level.
This breaks down how Grimes specifically recruits and coaches his OLine. His style and take on zone.
The timing is critical because it calls for double teaming and quick releases. Look at the Wisconsin tape to see our OLine wasting time chipping in on double teams and being late on the 2nd level guy resulting in a lot busted run plays. There blocking seemed forced and scripted, I definitely think we need more man on man blocking and let our running backs make the plays on the next level.
Posted on 10/7/14 at 7:41 pm to WalkingTurtles
It seems as if zone blocking would take a lot more experience to develop that INSTANT reaction...
which makes even less sense at why now?
to some degree this is Apples and Oranges, but has been the problem with Chavis on D... not sure that read/react is the proper term, but is the way he coached in TN and now at LSU.... this uses TIME as well
it seems as if in both cases, unless our players are exceptionally "quick thinking" that the opponent has the advantage.
which makes even less sense at why now?
to some degree this is Apples and Oranges, but has been the problem with Chavis on D... not sure that read/react is the proper term, but is the way he coached in TN and now at LSU.... this uses TIME as well
it seems as if in both cases, unless our players are exceptionally "quick thinking" that the opponent has the advantage.
Posted on 10/7/14 at 7:50 pm to rbdallas
Lsu has been using inside zone for years. It is not new to this year...they run a ton of zone boss with the two tight set. Basically zone with the fullback as a cleanup insert. It's been lsu's most effective run play the last 6-7 years. Everyone in the country runs inside zone. And to answer someone else's question, 7th ward's description of the line's decision making occurs pre snap. Lineman asks 2 questions:
Do I have a play side gap threat? If yes, step play side anticipating the block. If no, go to 2nd question:
Do I have a backside shoulder player? If yes step play side then post double team backside shoulder player as you climb to second level gap responsibility. If no, step flat and climb to second level player.
Also 90-50-10 rule to consider: if you have a DL lined up in your gap there is a 90% chance he will be in your gap post snap. If there is a head up player on you or the next OK playside of you there is a 50% chance he will be in your gap post snap. If there is no apparent threat to your gap by a DL there is a 10% chance a DL will stunt into it post snap hence always taking a play side step at snap.
Do I have a play side gap threat? If yes, step play side anticipating the block. If no, go to 2nd question:
Do I have a backside shoulder player? If yes step play side then post double team backside shoulder player as you climb to second level gap responsibility. If no, step flat and climb to second level player.
Also 90-50-10 rule to consider: if you have a DL lined up in your gap there is a 90% chance he will be in your gap post snap. If there is a head up player on you or the next OK playside of you there is a 50% chance he will be in your gap post snap. If there is no apparent threat to your gap by a DL there is a 10% chance a DL will stunt into it post snap hence always taking a play side step at snap.
Posted on 10/7/14 at 7:52 pm to 7thWardTiger
quote:Bottom line is that our OLine is not adapting to Grimes' scheme. Brings back memories of Lou Tepper's 'read & react' scheme!
In zone blocking schemes, you're blocking a hole and not a man
Posted on 10/7/14 at 8:10 pm to Tiger in Texas
Grimes scheme require quick release and a lot of the decision making has to happen during the play. It's causing confusion and slowing down the actual blocking.
Posted on 10/7/14 at 8:17 pm to Tiger in Texas
quote:
Brings back memories of Lou Tepper's 'read & react' scheme!
I just threw up in my mouth.
Posted on 10/7/14 at 9:03 pm to LSUwag
I was going to say, it sounds a bit Lou Tepperish! I will never forget the image of Lou Tepper and his chalk board on the sideline. The glazed over look of the defensive players said it all!
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