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OT History "What If" Discussion: Germany Wins WWI in 1914
Posted on 4/17/14 at 3:45 pm
Posted on 4/17/14 at 3:45 pm
Been a while since we've had one of these so I figured my favorite topic from history (WWI) would be a good subject to bring up.
As we all know WWI saw the Allies (US, GB, France, & Italy + others) defeat the Central Powers (German, Austria-Hungary, Ottoman Empire, & Bulgaria). The rest as they say is "history".
But it was a pretty near run thing, especially in the early weeks of the war. Germany could have won in the war quickly (as per the Schlieffen Plan) and then turned her full attention east to deal with Russia which would have not been ready for the full might of both Germany and Austria-Hungary combined. The one thing that stopped Germany in it's tracks, saving France and not allowing Germany to focus on Russia before it could complete it's mobilization, was the First Battle of the Marne ( AKA Miracle On The Marne). But even here, as so often is the case in history, the whole affair came down to one pivotal moment, one decision. In this case it was when German General Alexander Von Kluck turned his 1st Army to face the French along the River Aisne, thus opening a gap between his army and that of Von Bulow's 2nd Army. This is what allowed the French & Brits to halt the German offensive and thus seal Germany's fate which would come a little over 4 years later.
But what if Von Kluck had not made this mistake? Which this mistake was not entirely on him to be fair. What if the "Miracle on the Marne had never happened? What if the Germans had followed Count Alfred von Schlieffen's dying words of "remember to keep the right flank strong" and thus defeated the French & Brits in the summer of 1914? What would our world look like today?
As we all know WWI saw the Allies (US, GB, France, & Italy + others) defeat the Central Powers (German, Austria-Hungary, Ottoman Empire, & Bulgaria). The rest as they say is "history".
But it was a pretty near run thing, especially in the early weeks of the war. Germany could have won in the war quickly (as per the Schlieffen Plan) and then turned her full attention east to deal with Russia which would have not been ready for the full might of both Germany and Austria-Hungary combined. The one thing that stopped Germany in it's tracks, saving France and not allowing Germany to focus on Russia before it could complete it's mobilization, was the First Battle of the Marne ( AKA Miracle On The Marne). But even here, as so often is the case in history, the whole affair came down to one pivotal moment, one decision. In this case it was when German General Alexander Von Kluck turned his 1st Army to face the French along the River Aisne, thus opening a gap between his army and that of Von Bulow's 2nd Army. This is what allowed the French & Brits to halt the German offensive and thus seal Germany's fate which would come a little over 4 years later.
But what if Von Kluck had not made this mistake? Which this mistake was not entirely on him to be fair. What if the "Miracle on the Marne had never happened? What if the Germans had followed Count Alfred von Schlieffen's dying words of "remember to keep the right flank strong" and thus defeated the French & Brits in the summer of 1914? What would our world look like today?
Posted on 4/17/14 at 3:46 pm to Darth_Vader
Have a friend who is convinced the world would be better for it. He makes a compelling argument.
ETA: Idk myself
ETA: Idk myself
This post was edited on 4/17/14 at 3:47 pm
Posted on 4/17/14 at 3:49 pm to Darth_Vader
From my limited knowledge of the history, I think it's fair to say that Hitler probably wouldn't have taken over Germany.
Posted on 4/17/14 at 3:50 pm to Darth_Vader
quote:
What would our world look like today?
I wonder if the Nazis would've still risen to power in the 30's without a weak and desperate post war German populace. That would've dictated a lot of change.
Posted on 4/17/14 at 3:50 pm to Darth_Vader
quote:
What would our world look like today?
Posted on 4/17/14 at 3:51 pm to Darth_Vader
How about a better question in which more posters will be more knowledgeable:
What happens if the RAF loses the Battle of Britain?
What happens if the RAF loses the Battle of Britain?
Posted on 4/17/14 at 3:54 pm to Darth_Vader
Bolshevism breaks out in defeated England and France, and spreads across much of Europe. Germany is a bulwark against Communism during the Cold War, which starts in 1920.
Posted on 4/17/14 at 3:55 pm to elprez00
quote:
wonder if the Nazis would've still risen to power in the 30's without a weak and desperate post war German populace. That would've dictated a lot of change.
Not a chance
Posted on 4/17/14 at 3:55 pm to ManBearTiger
quote:
Have a friend who is convinced the world would be better for it.
Well I think there is a compelling argument to be made. Had the war ended in the summer of 1914, the October Revolution probably would have never occurred thus no USSR. Likewise the German empire would have remained intact so so Third Reich. And since there is no Nazi Germany or USSR, there would be no WWII. The Ottoman Empire would have not fallen so no modern day Middle East conflict. Japan would have not been given the German islands in the Pacific so there is a good chance they would have never emerged as a threat.
Although now that I say that, Japan was already an emerging power following it's defeat of the Russian Empire just over a decade earlier so there is still a possibility for Japan to become a thorn in the side of the European Powers and the US when it came to the question of control of resources in the Pacific.
Posted on 4/17/14 at 3:56 pm to Darth_Vader
No Hilter or WWII. A lot more Jews survive. No Israel and the middle east is less inflamed. No Cold War. Nuclear weapons developed later (maybe not a good thing). US does not dominate the world after 1945. Depression drags on longer. Completely different dismantling of the British empire though it still happens (but maybe more rationally).
Different world for sure.
Different world for sure.
Posted on 4/17/14 at 3:56 pm to Darth_Vader
Who knows? Perhaps some pissed off French dude whould have started a national socialist party in France. Probably not.
So many shitty things were put into motion as a result of that war, not to mention the carnage of the war itself. Terrible.
So many shitty things were put into motion as a result of that war, not to mention the carnage of the war itself. Terrible.
Posted on 4/17/14 at 3:57 pm to Darth_Vader
Russia and Germany engage in a war for continental/world dominance 10 years later after Germany takes control of Europe and Northern Africa
Then USA allies with Germany in promise of getting everything east of Jerusalem, USA and Germany win and the world becomes a better place through German/American engineering/culture
Then USA allies with Germany in promise of getting everything east of Jerusalem, USA and Germany win and the world becomes a better place through German/American engineering/culture
Posted on 4/17/14 at 3:59 pm to ManBearTiger
quote:
Have a friend who is convinced the world would be better for it. He makes a compelling argument.
If Germany would have won WWI, who knows, I guess there could be an argument that the world wouldn't be that bad. Don't know if I agree with that argument though.
But if Germany had won WWII...yeah, that would not have turned out well.
This post was edited on 4/17/14 at 4:01 pm
Posted on 4/17/14 at 3:59 pm to Tigris
France is humiliated yet again in a quick and decisive conflict and after re-arming hostilities flare up in a few decades maybe.
Posted on 4/17/14 at 3:59 pm to Tornado Alley
quote:
How about a better question in which more posters will be more knowledgeable:
What happens if the RAF loses the Battle of Britain?
So are you just straight trying to f over the OP's thread because you'd rather talk about a different hypothetical scenario from a different conflict? Rude much?
Posted on 4/17/14 at 4:00 pm to Jim Rockford
quote:
Bolshevism breaks out in defeated England and France, and spreads across much of Europe. Germany is a bulwark against Communism during the Cold War, which starts in 1920.
I would argue "Bolshevism" style communisim had more to do with the culture of the Eastern Bloc countries, and that if England and France had politically been inclined to tilt that way at that time, they would probably just look like the current brand of democratic socialism that you currently see in both places more than anything akin to the Bolshevism of the East.
Posted on 4/17/14 at 4:00 pm to Jim Rockford
quote:
Bolshevism breaks out in defeated England and France, and spreads across much of Europe. Germany is a bulwark against Communism during the Cold War, which starts in 1920.
I could see it happening in France. It has a long history of political instability coupled with a love of Socialism. I'm not so sure that post-Victorian era Britain though would have been as susceptible to a revolution that would have toppled the monarchy. Keep in mind that the monarchs in Germany, Russia, and Britain were all first cousins. I'd imagine that once peace was settled the Kaiser would be very ready to lend George V a hand in maintaining his throne.
Posted on 4/17/14 at 4:06 pm to Darth_Vader
quote:
I'm not so sure that post-Victorian era Britain though would have been as susceptible to a revolution that would have toppled the monarchy.
They kicked out Churchill and put in Labor when they were wrapping up WINNING a war. I don't think a Bolshevik revolution in England is far fetched at all after a WWI loss. Sure, Germany would have had an interest in preventing this but realistically I'm not sure how much they could have done.
Posted on 4/17/14 at 4:09 pm to ManBearTiger
quote:
Have a friend who is convinced the world would be better for it. He makes a compelling argument.
Your friend is probably correct.
Posted on 4/17/14 at 4:16 pm to Tigris
quote:
They kicked out Churchill and put in Labor when they were wrapping up WINNING a war.
Yes, but the GB of 1945 was a far different country than GB of 1914. I'm not saying it's impossible for there to have been a "October Revolution" in a GB of 1914 that had just lost a brief but sharp war with Germany. But really if you look at all the ingredients that were present in 1917 Russia that all lead to the Communist Revolution, none of those things were to be found in 1914 GB, even if they'd just lost the war.
quote:
Sure, Germany would have had an interest in preventing this but realistically I'm not sure how much they could have done.
Well, if the German's had forced the Russians to sue for peace early on, say October 1914 at the latest, they would have millions of troops and plenty of arms to help the Brits quell the communists. Keep in mind that the ruling class in 1914 Europe already had seen a preview of communism in the aftermath of the Franco-Prussian War with the "Communards" that popped up in Paris. They knew what would be to come had GB gone "red" and would have taken whatever steps necessary to keep that from happening.
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