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re: Les and Coach Mac
Posted on 12/9/11 at 10:27 am to Good Times
Posted on 12/9/11 at 10:27 am to Good Times
quote:
Good Times
Also undeniable is the profound impact that both men have had on countless young men that have taken the field in tiger stadium. May Les lead the tigers as long as ol Cholly Mac if not longer.
Geau Tigers!
0
Posted on 12/9/11 at 10:30 am to LSU GrandDad
quote:
he was when he was younger. you have to remember that LSU created many of it's own limitations back then; no african americans (the alumni and ex-players caused this and i still get pissed off thinking about it),
LSU integrated its teams around the same time as the rest of the SEC. Not really an excuse for his inability to beat the Bear.
Posted on 12/9/11 at 10:33 am to Ace Midnight
quote:
I don't think "jock strap" metaphors are appropriate for a fine man who gave much,much more to LSU than he ever received back, at least during his lifetime.
No shite.
Posted on 12/9/11 at 10:39 am to chatuey
quote:
The only item where there is a resemblance is in their undying love for the QB that can run better, even if they can't pass worth a shite!!!
So true. Bert Jones/Paul Lyons say hi. Mac was a good coach, but he would always lose a game or three a year that he shouldn't. He was an underacheiver with the demeanor and character of Nick Saban. Except with there being few limits to how many players you could sign, he would run more people off the program than Saban ever could.
Posted on 12/9/11 at 10:42 am to south bama tiger
Only coach to beat the Bear back to back;69-70 was Coach Mac!
Posted on 12/9/11 at 1:41 pm to south bama tiger
quote:
He was an underacheiver with the demeanor and character of Nick Saban.
Groundless, baseless and insulting. Saban has never held a job longer than 5 years - that's barely enough to get the first group of players recruited to graduation. Mac's winning percentage is above par for the school and he was here 18 seasons - you know every school has a down year in 18 seasons. He was the DC during the Dietzel era and one of the finest people, if the players and coaches under him are to be believed, ever assocated with NCAA football, much less LSU. Saban is the worst kind of narcissistic meglomaniac and the character of the two are unsuitable for comparison.
Posted on 12/9/11 at 2:11 pm to Ace Midnight
First of all, most of Bear's former assistants DIDN'T beat him. Twice is more than what most beat him. Kudos to Mac. Second, a lot of the former players liked Mac than and now. He was well admired. This guy won near 70% of his games. You have any idea how many coached and former coaches would have given their left nut of for that? Yes, I would agree that Mac gave far more to LSU than LSU ever gave to him. The guy was treated like shite by the BOS and Paul Dietzel. He cared about his players and his assistants. Some of us are old enough to remember Coach Mac in his heyday. We respected him then and now after his passing. If you weren't around in that era, then you really don't have a clue about the man and coach he was. DON'T TALK TRASH ABOUT COACH MAC!!!
Posted on 12/9/11 at 4:14 pm to DaSaltyTiger
quote:
DON'T TALK TRASH ABOUT COACH MAC!!!
I'm not going to say that anybody is "above" criticism, but the $hit that supposedley grown LSU "fans" say about Mac would make a sailor blush. It's not fair, reasonable or even accurate. He was the DC of a championship team (I have always given him partial credit for 1958), and was robbed of the chance to play for the MNC in 1969 by the powers that be (and Ole Miss - the bastards).
Mac's best era was 1969 through 1973, inclusive, and he was 45-12-1. Saban was 48-16. Mac was 21-5-1 in conference over those 5 seasons, while Saban was 28-12. Other than the one game (but it was a big one - an opportunity Mac was deprived of) - I'm not seeing a lot of separation.
Sabanistas think they are "incomparable" - I say Mac is better.
Posted on 12/9/11 at 4:34 pm to Ace Midnight
Cholly Mac was a very good coach and a very good man. I had the honor of tailgating with him at a UF game once. He was generous and gracious and alway a Tiger. I watched him coach for 7 years when I was an LSU student.
This is not a good place to denigrate his memory (no place is, but surely not here).
Les is a good person,too. He was kind enough to sign a football for my UF office. These are great years, but we had some back in the sixties and seventies, too.
This is not a good place to denigrate his memory (no place is, but surely not here).
Les is a good person,too. He was kind enough to sign a football for my UF office. These are great years, but we had some back in the sixties and seventies, too.
Posted on 12/9/11 at 8:30 pm to Ace Midnight
quote:
Groundless, baseless and insulting
Insulting? yes. It's not groundless and baseless. I know several players that played under him during the best years of his career (late 60s, early 70s) and a couple employees of the SID while he was coach. He sure isn't "one of the finest people ever associated with NCAA football" as you stated. He had his "guys" on the team, and then their was the other 60%-75% of the team. I'm sure a lot of players have publically said he's a great guy, but there were a lot of guys that I'm sure privately would tell you they didn't respect him, or at least didn't enjoy playing for him or working with him.
quote:
Mac's winning percentage is above par for the school and he was here 18 seasons - you know every school has a down year in 18 seasons.
And I stand by my claim that he was an underacheiver. I can understand a down year. But in the time he was there, he won 1 SEC Championship. I believe he was 3-6-1 vs John Vaught, 2-16 vs Bear Bryant, and was 7-6 in bowl games (I will concede that teams that made bowl games were generally a lot better than now. No 6-6 quality teams). He was a great defensive coach. LSU lead the nation in rush defense for 3 or 4 years in a row in the late 60s. This was with an undersized group of white boys. But the offense while he was here was a joke even by 1960s standards, and using a 2 QB system when he had Bert Jones was nothing short of retarded. And it cost him a few games. He was a decent coach, but time has a way of altering reality. Don't listen to the crap John Ed Bradley wrote about him.
Posted on 12/9/11 at 9:29 pm to south bama tiger
I think at the end of it all, times changed and Charlie Mac didn't...
the 1971 Notre Dame game to my mind is legendary as well as 1979 USC....
the 1971 Notre Dame game to my mind is legendary as well as 1979 USC....
Posted on 12/9/11 at 10:26 pm to south bama tiger
quote:
He was a decent coach, but time has a way of altering reality.
Don't forget playing Freddy Haynes instead of Mike Hillman in Hillman's Junior year. Or Billy Ezell over Pat Screen.
We should have been an easy #1 in the nation in 1969 when Hillman was a senior. The only game we lost that year, we were ahead of Ole Miss (w/ Archie Manning) 23-12 in the 4th Qtr and Mac kept playing the second and third string QB's. Ole Miss came back to win 26-23. Pathetic!
Posted on 12/9/11 at 11:20 pm to chatuey
quote:
The only game we lost that year, we were ahead of Ole Miss (w/ Archie Manning) 23-12 in the 4th Qtr and Mac kept playing the second and third string QB's. Ole Miss came back to win 26-23. Pathetic!
The 2nd string QB was Buddy Lee who became the starter in 1970 as a senior over the sophomore Bert Jones. Buddy Lee was not a bad QB as a junior in 1969. The 3rd string QB was sophomore Butch Duhe, a rising star at that time. Unfortunately Butch Duhe died in the off season before the 1970 football season, I believe of a brain hemorage. Mac's decision to play them in crucial parts of that game didn't loose the game for LSU. That game was played in Jackson, MS and OLE MISS was that good. Archie was having a helluva year. Remember LSU could have kicked a FG at the end of the game to tie it, but Mac elected to go for the win on 4th down. I can't fault him for that. At least Mac wasn't Pat Dye!
Buz
Posted on 12/9/11 at 11:21 pm to guttata
i d i o t
Posted on 12/9/11 at 11:25 pm to Y.A. Tittle
quote:
LSU integrated its teams around the same time as the rest of the SEC. Not really an excuse for his inability to beat the Bear.
Actually LSU was the last team to integrate in the SEC. Mike Williams was the first to play in 1972, but Lora Hinton was the first black football recruit. In 1971 LSU went up to Madison, Wisconsin to play the BADGERS and the fans and students up there were shouting insults to the LSU squad for not having any black players. LSU still won the game.
Buz
Posted on 12/10/11 at 12:05 am to BuzBomb
quote:
In 1971 LSU went up to Madison, Wisconsin to play the BADGERS and the fans and students up there were shouting insults to the LSU squad for not having any black players. LSU still won the game.
The Wisconsin fans did a lot more than shout. They were throwing all kinds of trash and mess at the LSU players. It wasn't the players' fault no black players had been recruited, but the Badger fans took it out on them. Camp Randall was one of the largest stadiums in the country back then, and the fans thought it was a good place to stage some civil rights activism apparently. Classy Wisconsin, classy.
Those were some strange times.
Posted on 12/10/11 at 12:14 am to DaSaltyTiger
Cholly Mac is a LSU treasure and hall of famer. His biggest sin was he couldn't beat the bear. But nobody could.
Posted on 12/10/11 at 12:33 am to DA
Well, without him, Schembechler wouldn't have told Les Miles that LSU was not a stepping stone but a lifetime contender for a coach if he did well.
Bo and Cholly were friends apparently. The respect was there at least.
Bo and Cholly were friends apparently. The respect was there at least.
Posted on 12/10/11 at 8:10 am to south bama tiger
quote:
And I stand by my claim that he was an underacheiver.
On that point, you and I will just have to respectfully disagree.
quote:
He was a decent coach, but time has a way of altering reality.
Yeah it does - it is easy to take for granted 137 wins - until you hire Archer, Hallman and Dinardo, back to back.
In the 20 seasons following Mac (Mac coached 18, remember) - LSU won 124 games (13 fewer than Mac led LSU to in 18), but lost 99 (FORTY MORE THAN MAC - 2 additional losses per season)- a drop of about 15 percentage points off of Mac's performance, if one disregards ties - Mac had 7 ties in 18 seasons, while his successors had 6 over the next 20 years.
Also in 20 seasons - LSU made a bowl game (and it was much easier during the great bowl proliferation period) 9 times, a 50 percent drop.
So it would be fair to assess Stovall/Arns/Archer/Hallman/Dinardo as "underachievers"? Or are you one of those who list Arnsparger as a great LSU coach - ahead of Mac, but behind Saban and Dietzel?
Mac could not beat the greatest coaches in the history of Bama and Ole Miss - at least not on any kind of a consistent basis - if you want to say that - just say it. That's fair and Mac would say, if he was still here, "You got me on those". Don't make it out that he wasn't a great coach based on those cherry picked statistics. Based on the body of work (assuming you consider what he did as the DC at LSU prior to being promoted) Mac is the second greatest coach in LSU history, period, ahead of Dietzel and Saban, who combined for 12 seasons.
Posted on 12/10/11 at 8:27 am to guttata
quote:
Cholly Mac couldn't get close enough to even sniff Les's jock strap. I know everyone loves Cholly, I do too. But to put him in the same category as Les is laughable if you look at their accomplishments while at LSU.
I don't think he means in accomplishments. I think he means as in how he carries himself. I do see alot of Mac in Les.
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