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(tl;dr warning) Nick Saban vs. Les Miles: Should we pity Nick? Realtalk...

Posted on 10/31/11 at 10:26 am
Posted by GFunk
Denham Springs
Member since Feb 2011
14970 posts
Posted on 10/31/11 at 10:26 am
Charles Hanagriff started me thinking about this subject on the Eagle 98.1 Tiger Zone after the AU game. He made some great points about the contrast in styles between Les & Nick, & how those contrasts in demeanor & comportment trickle down to your teams. Off on a bit of a related tangent, he also went into what it means for your program & the men personally, in a broader sense.

He made some absolutely great points. Ones that make me wonder-though only for a brief moment-whether or not we should actually pity Nick Saban?

His reasoning was solid: Saban is an obviously great coach, known as a micromanager but obviously a proven commodity in that he's mastered the art of program building via that micromanagement. This obsessive and yes compulsive attention to detail yields great results, but it also renders him insufferable to many around him.

The stories of Saban's legendarily terse, rude, gruff, & generally dismissing attitude of the vast majority of people around him-from support staff to administrators to coaches and even players-are legion. The price of success that comes with involving Nick in your program is installing a man at the top of your program that has very little-if any-air around him at all. His aholishness (yes, its a made up word. Deal with it.) is matched only by his on-the-field accomplishments.

Hanagriff astutetly points out that this inner drive, this obsessive attention to detail is both what makes Saban great, and what creates this ahole persona. He went on to say that he'd almost feel sorry for him, if not for the incredibly terrible ways he treats everyone around him.

I agree completely. Some people might not think it goes to that level. Hey, aholes are aholes, y'know? But, what drives this point home for me is something that I'd consider totally unrelated yet very informative.

I recently watched a screening of the Ole War Skule-which is a must-see for all LSU Fans, by the way-and afterward, the director was nice enough to do a Q&A session. Some parts of the film & his comments after were very telling.

For starters, Nick absolutely must be mentioned in telling the tale about LSU Football's true return to the mountaintop of the collegiate football landscape. Love him or hate him, he played a huge role, and exacted a price some say is simply too steep in the process, in more ways than one.

So it was that Nick was included in Ole War Skule. The director was asked about how Saban was to work with. Like everyone interviewed about him in the film & folks who dealt with him while here, his answers were familiar: business-like, unfriendly, & exacting. The director went so far as to say Nick told them ahead of time that they could have 21.5 minutes to conduct the interview, & gave them EXACTLY that. 21.5 minutes.

What kind of a consumed, driven individual has his days planned out in such a precious and exacting manner? At first I laughed, of course. Then, I stopped and thought about Hanagriff's little editorial on how eaten up he is with this exacting, endlessly driven mindset.

Then, I stopped and thought back to Matt Mauck's interview in the film itself about Saban. He relayed how business-like he was, & in particular, a story about the immediate aftermath of the 2003 National Title season.

Mauck said that-while still at the SuperDome-Saban called both Mauck & Michael Clayton into a meeting room to have a private conversation. Mauck & Clayton were unaware of what was going on, but they walked in, closed the door, & Saban out-and-out asked them-right then and there, a half hour after winning a national title-if they were going to come back for 2004?

"He told us, 'I need to know right now if you plan on coming back'," Mauck said.

A half hour after reaching the mountaintop of that level of his profession, this cat is worried about the next year? Seriously? You can't enjoy it for half an hour, Nick?

That's when it hit me that Hanagriff is exactly right. Saban-if he weren't such a prick-simply cannot enjoy his successes. He obsesses about his failures, & simply can't stop for an instant to enjoy the fruits of his labor. A life lived in that manner is one I simply don't want.

Granted, its a formula that's meant success, and not just for him, either. But, at the bottom of all of this, I see him almost as a tortured soul. Constantly obsessed with perfection, success, & victory, & being driven slowly crazy by the realization that he can't enjoy it, even if he attains it.

Now, you contrast that with Miles. Do any of us know a guy that lives more in the moment that's in his station in life? Perhaps with the exception of Richard Branson, there's few guys I know that live life like a daredevil everyman, while reaching the pinnacle of success.

The guy embraces the situation. Lives in-and routinely enjoys the hell out of-the moment. Values simple things like family, laughter, & beach vacations. Visits the troops overseas, & rewards players-even those who've crossed him-with many opportunities for 2nd chances. His coaches swear by him, & he's created an oasis of top-flight accomplishment while allowing for human beings to be human beings.

A method that's foreign to Saban. Giving either one of these coaches the other's programs & systems and telling them, "go do it like this" would be like asking a 4 year old Russian kid to translate Tolstoy's War & Peace into Cajun French.

I think none of us would choose the Saban method for our children, friends, or family. Even though none can argue with the end result of the means he uses, seeing someone so totally unable to embrace the joys that success & accomplishment can bring is honestly sad.

This is why-for a fleeting second-I almost pity Nick. In his heart of hearts, I'm guessing he truly envies Les. Because Les has more than shiny baubles & a big house on the Lake or in Destin. Les has a life outside of the fishbowl that Nick cannot comprehend or ever hope to obtain.

Yep. I almost pity Nick. Then I remember what an a-hole he is, and who he coaches for.

Then I stop & think, "Life's a bitch. Then you die."

**I know, I know....tl;dr**
Posted by kkroli1
Houston, Texas
Member since Nov 2007
336 posts
Posted on 10/31/11 at 10:29 am to
Agreed.
Posted by Myshkin
Wanderlust
Member since Jul 2011
2868 posts
Posted on 10/31/11 at 10:30 am to
Maybe
Posted by The Mick
Member since Oct 2010
44849 posts
Posted on 10/31/11 at 10:32 am to
quote:

tl;dr warning
I heeded the warning and d n r
Posted by LSUGrad9295
Baton Rouge
Member since May 2007
36846 posts
Posted on 10/31/11 at 10:33 am to
2 ways to skin a cat...Saban's way works and Miles way works. Both have crystal balls to prove it. I don't feel sorry for anyone who makes more money in a year than I have made in my entire lifetime.
Posted by clamdip
Rocky Mountain High
Member since Sep 2004
20292 posts
Posted on 10/31/11 at 10:35 am to
I don't think there is any doubt that saban is a tortured soul on some level.

I also don't think there's much doubt that Les Miles puts his family first and somehow still manages to be a heck of a football coach. There were times when I wasn't sure that was possible in this age of big-time college football.
Posted by Tigerpaul1969
The Woodlands, TX
Member since Jan 2010
4665 posts
Posted on 10/31/11 at 10:37 am to
I remember how he looked on the sidelines in the BCSNC game against Texas in 2010 after they had sealed the victory. He looked miserable. He smiled at all the right times in the post-game festivities, but I could just tell he wasn't really enjoying it. I guess it doesn't really matter, but I noticed it.
Posted by EZE Tiger Fan
Member since Jul 2004
55400 posts
Posted on 10/31/11 at 10:38 am to
This thread is dead on.

I can relate to it personally because I have a similar personality type as Saban. This highlights it perfectly:

quote:

"He told us, 'I need to know right now if you plan on coming back'," Mauck said.

A half hour after reaching the mountaintop of that level of his profession, this cat is worried about the next year? Seriously? You can't enjoy it for half an hour, Nick?

That's when it hit me that Hanagriff is exactly right. Saban-if he weren't such a prick-simply cannot enjoy his successes. He obsesses about his failures, & simply can't stop for an instant to enjoy the fruits of his labor. A life lived in that manner is one I simply don't want.


If my job in life were a head football coach, this is exactly how I would react. To a "t". That is one of the main faults with a type A personality. You never enjoy the moment. You live life like this:

quote:

The director went so far as to say Nick told them ahead of time that they could have 21.5 minutes to conduct the interview, & gave them EXACTLY that. 21.5 minutes.


Your greatest strength (organization) is also your weakness.

As for Miles and Saban, yes, two totally different mind sets outside of the coaching world too.

I won't go into details, but Miles, and the people around him, mainly his family, are more grounded and happier.

Who do I want running the program?

Well, in order to get back to where LSU is now, Saban's method was exactly what we needed to right the ship. I don't think Miles' method would have worked in 2000. Now, his method works.

It is a toss up for me who I'd want long term at this point.

But, as a person, Miles is literally Miles ahead of Saban.
Posted by Tiger n Austin
Austin, Tx
Member since Dec 2005
6798 posts
Posted on 10/31/11 at 10:39 am to
I remember watching one of those All-Access shows on ESPN and they were following around Bama. They walk into Saban's office and he was chatting with his daughter. I remember watching their interactions and came away thinking that even a conversation with his daughter had a biz-like approach/demeanor to it. It was very odd and Saban showed zero emotion in the conversation.
Posted by inebr8ted tiger
Arkansas
Member since Aug 2007
1395 posts
Posted on 10/31/11 at 10:44 am to
This is well said, and I could not agree more. I wish I could bottle what Les Miles is building and use it for my own life. It's hard to balance success and family. Typically you can either have one or the other, not both.
Posted by Golfer
Member since Nov 2005
75052 posts
Posted on 10/31/11 at 10:46 am to
quote:

I wish I could bottle what Les Miles is building and use it for my own life.


This x10000000
Posted by TigerAlumni2010
Baton Rouge
Member since Aug 2011
4747 posts
Posted on 10/31/11 at 10:49 am to
Also in the 2010 Championship game...Saban looked PISSED when his players doused him in Gatorade.
Posted by RealityTiger
Geismar, LA
Member since Jan 2010
20543 posts
Posted on 10/31/11 at 10:53 am to
Well since I made it past high school, I read it.

I agree for the most part but honestly I have no respect for Saban other than what he did when he was here. But then I think of how he conducted the "move" to greener pastures. On the day LSU landed in Orlando, he annouces there on the road. Not that I blame him for wanting to give the pros a shot, but how he did it was completely classless and chickenshit combined.

And then after he failed, the day he announces to come back to the college level to Alabama, just happens to be the day that LSU is playing the Sugar Bowl against Notre Dame. He couldn't wait one more day, he just absolutely had to do it THAT day.

And when I think about those things, it definitely tarnishes whatever good feeling I have about Saban. I wish it wasn't that way, but it is. And because I have this tarnished and biased opinion of him doesn't mean "I didn't get over him leaving" or that I "wish he was back here". It took me a while, but I've finally fully accepted Les Miles as LSU's coach, flaws and all. And I'm glad he's here rather than the former.
Posted by Tiger JJ
Member since Aug 2010
545 posts
Posted on 10/31/11 at 10:54 am to
quote:

The director went so far as to say Nick told them ahead of time that they could have 21.5 minutes to conduct the interview, & gave them EXACTLY that. 21.5 minutes.


sounds bullshitty
Posted by EZE Tiger Fan
Member since Jul 2004
55400 posts
Posted on 10/31/11 at 10:59 am to
quote:

sounds bullshitty


It is absolutely not bullshitty. At all.

That is Saban all the way. The clock in his head operates just like that.

I have the exact same personality. I can tell you, at this moment, what I will be doing at 333PM today. If not, I will lose it.

Not a wasted second....LOL

At least in my mind.
Posted by Tiger_n_ATL
Atlanta
Member since Jul 2005
33138 posts
Posted on 10/31/11 at 10:59 am to
quote:

(tl;dr warning) Nick Saban vs. Les Miles: Should we pity Nick? Realtalk...
could be the worst subject line in td history
Posted by RealityTiger
Geismar, LA
Member since Jan 2010
20543 posts
Posted on 10/31/11 at 11:01 am to
Just a sidenote, that's all good and fine but life rarely works out the way you have it planned in your head. And certainly not down to the minute.

Ok back to the topic again.
Posted by Tiger_n_ATL
Atlanta
Member since Jul 2005
33138 posts
Posted on 10/31/11 at 11:07 am to
Just because Miles "does it differently" does not mean it's any more right than the way Saban does it. Just because Miles is now here and Saban isn't, doesn't make his way any more justified. Both men have different ways to skin a cat. Constantly busting on Saban because he's 'gruff' and so therefore that somehow invalidates his method is intellectually dishonest and frankly wimpy.

People are different, that's what makes the world go round. You can' fit a square peg into a round hole, so to try to take either man and make him fit into some perfect ideal coach that you have dreamed up is lame. Just accept the fact that both methods work, both have inherent drawbacks and obvious advantages.

This constant Saban vs. Miles, "he's better, no, he's better" juvenile, high schoolish comparison contest is really getting tiring.
Posted by NC_Tigah
Make Orwell Fiction Again
Member since Sep 2003
135262 posts
Posted on 10/31/11 at 11:15 am to
quote:

this is exactly how I would react. To a "t". That is one of the main faults with a type A personality. You never enjoy the moment. You live life like this:

FWIW, your description sounds much more like Obsessive-Compulsive Personality Disorder than "Type-A Personality".
Posted by GFunk
Denham Springs
Member since Feb 2011
14970 posts
Posted on 10/31/11 at 11:18 am to
quote:

Tiger_n_ATL


You couldn't be more ignorant if you tried.

quote:

Constantly busting on Saban because he's 'gruff' and so therefore that somehow invalidates his method.


In fact, I went out of my way-several times, in several ways-to say the EXACT opposite. Thanks for agreeing with me that its hard to argue with the ends that both of these coaches' respective means achieve.

My apologies you're so poor at reading that you agreeing with someone's points is actually internally inferred as someone being intellectually dishonest & frankly wimpy.

quote:

People are different, that's what makes the world go round. You can' fit a square peg into a round hole, so to try to take either man and make him fit into some perfect ideal coach that you have dreamed up is lame. Just accept the fact that both methods work, both have inherent drawbacks and obvious advantages.


Again, my point was that neither could do it. Yet no one whose focused on the results they achieve could argue that the methods aren't effective. What kind of an idiot are you that you've evidently read through my post and are still coming up with this as a response? Its tough not to denigrate your basic intelligence levels when you fail this hard, bro.

The methods aren't what I was judging, you twit. If you can't do any better than this at responding, then don't. Seriously. You already complain that this is tiring.

Reading you tripping all over your dick is just as REM-cycle inducing.
This post was edited on 10/31/11 at 11:22 am
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