re: Lab training...

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No question they are great people and bred some incredible dogs, but I have experienced and heard about some horror stories. Steve is an incredible trainer, but only trains one way. If your dog needs a softer touch Steve isn't the guy. He is quick to shock your dog. I understand why he does this, but some dogs need more attention rather than being ground down.

My suggestion would be to talk to several trainers. See if they use the collar or not. I would be looking for one that doesn't use it. If used improperly, and too much, it will ruin an otherwise fine retriever

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My dog is with Steve now and has been there for 2 months. I'm not getting the same experience you are talking about. My dog is doing great and I have been up there several times to watch Steve train him. He seems very easy on my dog and is actually easier than my last trainer (Bart Posey). My dog also shows no signs of being ground down.

Sounds like you may have had a very timid dog that would have been hard to train regardless if a shock collar was used or not. I've had several dogs trained with a shock collar and know several people that have had theirs trained with one and nobody has ever had a problem with the collar ruining the dog.

All the dogs I've trained (50+) I did with an e-collar (for gundog/field trial retrievers). I don't need an e-collar for training a dog, it is a reinforcement tool. Dogs learn through teaching, rewarding, timing and correction. I can issue a correction at the speed at which the dog learns best. Gundogs and trial retrievers have come miles since the invention of the e-collar.
All the pro's mentioned above are very capable trainers. Are there ignorant folks that don't know how to use one properly, yes. Do e-collars get abused/overused, YES.
When we run Hunt Test and trials, it is against the rules to use ANY traning device (e-collar,choke chain,etc)and our dogs do quite well.Many Master, Grand, and Field Champion titles are awarded to dogs that never wore the first collar or anything in competetion. Yes, an e-collar was used to train them. (Properly).If you are against an e-collar, you are misinformed on their true purpose and use. Gundogs and trial retrievers are heads and tails better trained now than before e-collars and its not even close. If you don't believe it, go find a dog that was trained e-collar less, and put it up against any Grand Champion, Master Hunter, or Field Champion and you'll understand. Question: What happens when a bird savy gundog,takes off after his/her duck and doesn't see the big alligator heading for the same duck. If the dog listens and comes back, you're good either way. If he decides that he doesn't want to listen, and wants the duck anyway, an e-collar could save its life.

Always up for talking dogs n ducks. Thanks.

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KJS

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what do you think is a fair price per month to get a lab whistle and hand signal trained for duck hunting?

my wife hates the idea of sending our dog off but no matter how much i read Waterdog, i know i cant compare to an actual dog trainer

you seem to have a good knowledge of this subject so i wanted your opinion on that.

basically im trying to find an affordable trainer

i dont need a world champion field dog, but just a good dog that knows what its doing in a blind.

Vol Fan, was your dog collar conditioned before you started training with the collar?

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Vol Fan, was your dog collar conditioned before you started training with the collar?

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I assume yes. I didn't train him. Like I said, I bought my dog from Steve and Kim and wanted Steve to train him since I just don't have the time. Steve recommend I send him out there at a certain age. I followed his instructions and he went out there for the summer and got him back right before duck season. I sent him back after the season and he wasn't progressing. I chalked it up to him being young and immature. But, the one thing I realized after getting him back was that he lacked confidence. I worked with him during the spring and sent him back to Steve. After I visited twice a week, I saw what was going on and then sent him to a different trainer. WOW, what a difference. He really blossomed and was able to become a dog again. Best move of his life. Like I said, he is one hell of a hunting dog now. Now, I send him away for a month before the season to for "spring training".

Maybe it was the ground work Steve. Who knows. All I can say is that things really changed when the collar was thrown away.

Please don't misunderstand me. I am not morally opposed to collars. You wanna use one, great. Its just not for my dogs.

my fam uses Wonderlab Kennels for their 2 chocolate labs. 1 has achieved every level possible. The other just started.

LINK

The good trainers I would trust with my dog (small list) charge 5-600/ month. If you find someone cheaper, ask them who they apprenticed under, and for referrels. Too many "self taught" back yard "pros" out there.
Vol. If your dog progressed well without an e-collar,and YOU are happy with it; awesome! Not all trainers work well with certain dogs. I had a dog brought to me that hadn't progressed well with two other,very good pros (I know them both).
Dog developed into a fine finished retriever.My read was the dog was to immature and I just happend to get him when he decided to grow up. Not all dogs can handle the pressure of e-collar conditioning. Usually those dogs were either introduced to it incorrectly, or too immature in my experience.I have successfully collar conditioned poodles and house dogs with very positive results. "Clickers and treats are great untill a dogs natural tendencies and desire, over power his training" Rex Car.
Ash. Water dog is a very dated method. Google Bill Hillman or Danny Farmer and follow their material. Also join our local retriever club. (Amite River HRC). You get free info from pros and very knowledgeable amature handlers. arhrc.org is the link i think.

Ash, send me an e-mail. (kjshunter@aol.com)
I'll answer any questions you have.