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Are We Subjects or Citizens? Birthright Citizenship and the Constitution

Posted on 4/12/26 at 4:07 pm
Posted by AlwysATgr
Member since Apr 2008
20798 posts
Posted on 4/12/26 at 4:07 pm
Great and concise article on the subject by Edward Erler. Shows how we rejected British common law on the matter (Blackstone's birthright subjectship), how citizenship is defined by law, how WKA erred, and how dual citizenship needs to be cancelled. Select quotes:

quote:

Many believe that this policy is an explicit command of the Constitution, consistent with the British common law system. But this is simply not true.

The framers of the Constitution were, of course, well-versed in the British common law, having learned its essential principles from William Blackstone’s Commentaries on the Laws of England. As such, they knew that the very concept of citizenship was unknown in British common law. Blackstone speaks only of “birthright subjectship” or “birthright allegiance,” never using the terms citizen or citizenship. The idea of birthright subjectship, as Blackstone readily admits, is derived from feudal law. It is the relation of master and servant; all who are born within the protection of the king owe perpetual allegiance as a “debt of gratitude.” According to Blackstone, this debt is “intrinsic” and “cannot be forfeited, cancelled, or altered.”


quote:

America’s Founders rejected this doctrine. The Declaration of Independence, after all, solemnly proclaims that “the good People of these Colonies . . . are Absolved from all Allegiance to the British Crown


quote:

So the common law—the feudal doctrine of perpetual allegiance—could not possibly serve as the ground of American (i.e., republican) citizenship.


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James Wilson, a signer of the Declaration of Independence and a member of the Constitutional Convention as well as a Supreme Court Justice, captured the essence of the matter when he remarked: “Under the Constitution of the United States there are citizens, but no subjects.” The transformation of subjects into citizens was the work of the Declaration and the Constitution. Both are premised on the idea that citizenship is based on the consent of the governed—not the accident of birth.


quote:

Citizenship, of course, does not exist by nature. It is created by law


quote:

Thus there are two components to American citizenship: birth or naturalization in the U.S. and being subject to the jurisdiction of the U.S.


quote:

the meaning of “subject to the jurisdiction”: it meant owing exclusive allegiance to the U.S. and none to any other country.


quote:

Howard in agreeing that the “law of the land” meant that “subject to the jurisdiction” connoted “complete jurisdiction”—in other words, not owing allegiance to anyone else.


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Thus “subject to the jurisdiction” does not simply mean, as is commonly thought today, subject to American laws or American courts. It means owing exclusive political allegiance to the U.S.


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In sum, what we today call birth right citizenship is a legacy of feudalism that was decisively rejected as the ground of American citizenship by the Fourteenth Amendment and the Expatriation Act of 1868


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Thus repeal of the current policy of birthright citizenship for the children of illegal aliens would not require a constitutional amendment.


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The same kind of confusion that has led us to accept birthright citizenship for the children of illegal aliens has led us to tolerate dual citizenship.


Imprimis
This post was edited on 4/12/26 at 6:11 pm
Posted by ChineseBandit58
Pearland, TX
Member since Aug 2005
49441 posts
Posted on 4/12/26 at 5:48 pm to
quote:

Great and concise article on the subject by Edward Erler.

all common sense

therefore to a democrat it is like sunshine on a vampire
Posted by rooster108bm
Member since Nov 2010
3215 posts
Posted on 4/12/26 at 6:43 pm to
quote:

Thus repeal of the current policy of birthright citizenship for the children of illegal aliens would not require a constitutional amendment.


This is correct.

The 14th amendment as intended only applies to former slaves. It didn't apply to Native Americans because they were not under the jurisdiction of the U.S.
Posted by SlowFlowPro
With populists, expect populism
Member since Jan 2004
474877 posts
Posted on 4/12/26 at 6:46 pm to
quote:

America’s Founders rejected this doctrine. The Declaration of Independence, after all, solemnly proclaims that “the good People of these Colonies . . . are Absolved from all Allegiance to the British Crown

And yet, we adopted the common law immediately.

quote:

So the common law—the feudal doctrine of perpetual allegiance
\
This is not the common law. More dishonesty.

quote:

Citizenship, of course, does not exist by nature. It is created by law

While the 14th Amendment isn't a "law" per se, it falls within the argument he's (poorly) attempting.

quote:

Thus “subject to the jurisdiction” does not simply mean, as is commonly thought today, subject to American laws or American courts. It means owing exclusive political allegiance to the U.S.

If you read WKA and its historical analysis, this is not an accurate statement.

This guy is all over the place with misstatements and outright dishonesty.
Posted by rooster108bm
Member since Nov 2010
3215 posts
Posted on 4/12/26 at 6:49 pm to
Explain how Native Americans were not citizens regardless of birth and the 14th amendment until an act passed by congress in 1924.
Posted by SlowFlowPro
With populists, expect populism
Member since Jan 2004
474877 posts
Posted on 4/12/26 at 6:52 pm to
quote:

Explain how Native Americans were not citizens regardless of birth and the 14th amendment until an act passed by congress in 1924.

They're an idiosyncratic population. They're the only people who can be born within the territory of the US and a separate nation outside of the US. The problems with that idiosyncratic status + some racism got us Elk v. Wilkins.

It's not an argument applicable to any other population.

You do realize there was a history of birthright citizenship in the US prior to the 14th Amendment, right?
Posted by rooster108bm
Member since Nov 2010
3215 posts
Posted on 4/12/26 at 6:57 pm to
quote:

You do realize there was a history of birthright citizenship in the US prior to the 14th Amendment, right?


Absolutely. And it was decided by the states. That still doesn't refute the fact that the 14th was written for former slaves and the record shows in minutes of congress that it didn't apply to everyone born here.

It also shows that everyone born here is not subject to the US government.
Posted by SlowFlowPro
With populists, expect populism
Member since Jan 2004
474877 posts
Posted on 4/12/26 at 6:59 pm to
quote:

Absolutely. And it was decided by the states.

Correct, and the 14th Amendment nationalized it as our Constitutional baseline.

quote:

That still doesn't refute the fact that the 14th was written for former slaves and the record shows in minutes of congress that it didn't apply to everyone born here.

That depends on who you quote, which is why Legislative intent is a terrible method to use, especially if it ignores the text itself.

quote:

It also shows that everyone born here is not subject to the US government.

On occasion diplomats have children within our borders, yes.
Posted by rooster108bm
Member since Nov 2010
3215 posts
Posted on 4/12/26 at 7:07 pm to
quote:

On occasion diplomats have children within our borders, yes.


Yes and they're not subject to jurisdiction and they are here on a passport.

How the hell can you argue someone here illegally or on a passport is any different?

If they have a green card I have no problem with their child being a citizen
Posted by LemmyLives
Texas
Member since Mar 2019
15580 posts
Posted on 4/12/26 at 7:21 pm to
quote:

Yes and they're not subject to jurisdiction and they are here on a passport.

How the hell can you argue someone here illegally or on a passport is any different?

I do like reading the legal back and forth, but this common sense is why I keep coming back.
Posted by SlowFlowPro
With populists, expect populism
Member since Jan 2004
474877 posts
Posted on 4/12/26 at 7:43 pm to
quote:

Yes and they're not subject to jurisdiction and they are here on a passport.

A diplomatic passport.

quote:

How the hell can you argue someone here illegally or on a passport is any different?

The literal nature of diplomats.

We can prosecute illegals or people here on passports/visas.

Diplomats can't be prosecuted.



Why can't they be prosecuted? They're not subject to the jurisdiction of the US.

Posted by rooster108bm
Member since Nov 2010
3215 posts
Posted on 4/12/26 at 7:45 pm to
Yet you refuse to refute the fact that the 14th amendment was solely for freed slaves.
Posted by SlowFlowPro
With populists, expect populism
Member since Jan 2004
474877 posts
Posted on 4/12/26 at 7:47 pm to
quote:

Yet you refuse to refute the fact that the 14th amendment was solely for freed slaves.

That's up for debate, as it was in the literal debates. There was not a uniform opinion about that issue.

Again, why legislative intent is bad for these sorts of analyses.
Posted by rooster108bm
Member since Nov 2010
3215 posts
Posted on 4/12/26 at 7:50 pm to
quote:

That's up for debate, as it was in the literal debates. There was not a uniform opinion about that issue.

Again, why legislative intent is bad for these sorts of analyses.


Did it apply to Native Americans?
Posted by SlowFlowPro
With populists, expect populism
Member since Jan 2004
474877 posts
Posted on 4/12/26 at 7:54 pm to
Already answered.

Indians are an idiosyncratic population.
Posted by rooster108bm
Member since Nov 2010
3215 posts
Posted on 4/12/26 at 7:56 pm to
Ok. Who issues passports? Does that fall under the executive?

Or guess the better question would be who allows someone in on a passport.
This post was edited on 4/12/26 at 7:58 pm
Posted by SlowFlowPro
With populists, expect populism
Member since Jan 2004
474877 posts
Posted on 4/12/26 at 7:57 pm to
quote:

Ok. Who issues passports? Does that fall under the executive?

What does this have to do with anything?

US passports are for US citizens. What does this have to do with a discussion about BRC in any way?
Posted by 4x4tiger
Louisiana
Member since Feb 2006
5728 posts
Posted on 4/12/26 at 7:58 pm to
quote:

This guy is all over the place with misstatements and outright dishonesty.


So are you
Posted by SlowFlowPro
With populists, expect populism
Member since Jan 2004
474877 posts
Posted on 4/12/26 at 7:59 pm to
quote:

So are you

No
Posted by OchoDedos
Republic of Texas
Member since Oct 2014
39759 posts
Posted on 4/12/26 at 8:01 pm to
quote:

Are We Subjects or Citizens?

We're Citizens bound by a Constitution, therefore Subjects of the Supreme Court. Thank John Marshall and Marbury v Madison
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