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re: Does Satanism exist without Christianity?
Posted on 12/17/23 at 10:06 am to FooManChoo
Posted on 12/17/23 at 10:06 am to FooManChoo
quote:
But more specifically, reason alone cannot provide an “ought”, only an opinion based on personal preferences.
Why?
quote:
It happens everywhere, but my point wasn’t that it occurs, but that it isn’t an adequate foundation by itself for objective moral reasoning precisely because it doesn’t provide a standard at all but allows others to identify standards
Again, literally the same process within Christianity. Your arguments easily apply to Christianity as a whole to, and nobody else ITT is trying to invalidate the religion other than you.
quote:
and how everyone believes something that they believe is true, which necessarily means they believing competing worldviews, beliefs, and ideas are false.
Again, nobody else is trying to invalidate Christianity like you are, apparently.
quote:
Anyone who promotes their own beliefs are competing against others who believe differently.
It's not a competition, especially if your premise (one true morality granted to humanity by a god) is true. A competition implies any of the competitors can "win".
quote:
For one, promotion of Satanism calls into question the Christian faith and teachings which can cause Christians and non-Christians alike to doubt what is true, and therefore lead some astray to everlasting damnation.
Satanism and literally ever other philosophy or religion, including 99% of Christian sects that "compete" (as you put it) with your view of Christianity.
quote:
the promotion of Satanism promotes a worldview that is antithetical to the Christian worldview
Again, outside of the deity worship, not completely true.
quote:
and makes people think that worldview is just as valid to Christianity in terms of morality.
When the moralities overlap, does the fact that one comes from "Satanism" then invalidate everything in that overlap?
Posted on 12/18/23 at 10:04 am to SlowFlowPro
quote:The "ought" comes from some sort of moral law-giver.quote:Why?
But more specifically, reason alone cannot provide an “ought”, only an opinion based on personal preferences.
Assume for a second that there is no God (I'm sure you're way ahead of me). Where does obligation to be moral come from, and what standard of morality are we obliged to obey? If morality is entirely a social construct, then it doesn't truly exist in an objective way for us to reason to. We would just be reacting to the positive and negative effects of our actions in society, which will change over time, based on what we desire most in life.
Someone who is suicidal and doesn't care about getting along with others will have no social pressure to conform to, so for them, morality is whatever they personally think it is. How can I, myself, simply use reason to come to the same moral conclusions as the suicidal individual? The only thing reason can do is help me navigate my cultural and societal surrounds. It can't lead me to an objective moral truth when none exists.
quote:An objective moral standard exists within Christianity that is not possible outside it based on the nature of morality and the moral law-giver. How we apply that standard may be different based on our right understanding and our sinful desires that skew how we think about it, but the standard exists. The goal of the Christian is to apply that standard in a consistent way that serves man and glorifies God.
Again, literally the same process within Christianity. Your arguments easily apply to Christianity as a whole to, and nobody else ITT is trying to invalidate the religion other than you.
All philosophies, ideas, beliefs, and worldviews are held because the one holding it believes they are correct. No one believes something as true that they know is false; that would be a contradiction. To hold something as true is to hold all other non-conforming beliefs, ideas, etc. as false by logical necessity, so when a person promotes what they believe to be true, they are by natural consequence arguing against all other ideas, beliefs, etc. that contradict it.
quote:Atheists attempt to do it all the time, openly, and with purposeful intent. So do Muslims who believe Christians blaspheme Allah by claiming Jesus is God. So do Jews who deny Jesus is God. So do Jehovah's Witnesses who claim that God is not sovereign over this world but Satan is. It goes on and on, but as I already said, when you make an exclusive truth claim, you logically exclude all claims that do not align. The only practical exception are those who are ignorant about it and claim that all truth claims are equal and valid.
Again, nobody else is trying to invalidate Christianity like you are, apparently.
quote:I'm speaking of a competition in the sense that all those "playing" believe that there is a singular goal and are attempting to "win" by defeating all opposition. That is done all the time in an ideological sense by proposing for your own ideas while attempting to defeat the ideas of others and the arguments against your own.
It's not a competition, especially if your premise (one true morality granted to humanity by a god) is true. A competition implies any of the competitors can "win".
Also, even in the sports world, teams an "compete" and give it their all even when they are overly matched with no real shot at winning. Christianity being true does not mean that all other ideologies and beliefs cannot fight against it. It may be futile in the end, but in the meantime, they do their best.
quote:Satanism and all other competing beliefs apart from Orthodox Christianity lead others astray. While it's true that few Christian sects or denominations are in 100% agreement, differing on minor particulars of the faith does not invalidate the shared core of the faith that is necessary for brotherly agreement and salvation. It's why there are so many different denominations within Protestantism that can rightfully call each other "brother", because what they share in common is what defines the faith.
Satanism and literally ever other philosophy or religion, including 99% of Christian sects that "compete" (as you put it) with your view of Christianity.
quote:No, it's true. This is where Christianity differs from all other moralities in other religions and philosophies: Christianity does not teach that outward appearances alone are what make "good works" actually good. In Christianity, a good work is something that conforms to the commands of God and are done for His glory. Romans 14:23 states that whatever is not done by faith is sin. That means, the atheist who gives to the needy is still in sin when he does it for any reasons that do not include honoring God (doing it because it's right in God's eyes).
Again, outside of the deity worship, not completely true.
quote:Sort of? It depends because the Satanic Temple, for instance, seems to have a different understanding of the words that are in overlap with Christianity as well as having different motives that make application of that "overlap" look very different.
When the moralities overlap, does the fact that one comes from "Satanism" then invalidate everything in that overlap?
Tenant 1 states that we should strive to act with compassion and empathy toward all creatures in accordance with reason. I agree we should strive to act with compassion and empathy toward all creatures, but not in accordance with "reason" alone, but in accordance with God's Word. We shouldn't have empathy and compassion simply for the sake of having it, but because other creatures don't belong to us, but to God. And how we act with compassion and empathy is going to look different between the Christian and the Satanist. A parent punishing their child to train them doesn't seem very compassionate from the child's perspective.
Tenant 2 states that the struggle for justice is an ongoing and necessary pursuit that should prevail over laws and institutions. I disagree with this. Justice, by definition, is based on standards like laws, and without laws and institutions, I don't know how we identify what justice even is. For the Christian, justice is intrinsically tied to laws and institutions. To the Satanic Temple, justice is above laws and institutions.
For tenant three, it says one’s body is inviolable, subject to one’s own will alone. The Christian would disagree as we believe everyone is subject to the will of God ultimately, but that each person is expected to submit their wills to the authorities that God has put in place over us.
I could go on with each point, but my point is that just because similar or even same words are used, we mean different things by them and apply those principles differently because our underlying and foundational beliefs are vastly different.
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