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re: "Constitutional carry” passes in the committee and will now move on to the House.

Posted on 5/17/23 at 6:32 pm to
Posted by Junky
Louisiana
Member since Oct 2005
8562 posts
Posted on 5/17/23 at 6:32 pm to
quote:

Would you permit a convicted armed robber to have a firearm while in prison?


No, they are in prison. After their sentence, they certainly deserve all rights restored. Don’t like that? Increase sentence lengths to reflect the crime. When they are released, all rights restored.

And that
quote:

balance point between what is reasonable and what is an infringement.


States it right here

Shall not be infringed

No if’s, no and’s, no buts.
This post was edited on 5/17/23 at 6:33 pm
Posted by bhtigerfan
Baton Rouge
Member since Sep 2008
30981 posts
Posted on 5/17/23 at 7:05 pm to
quote:

Those included Sen. Gary Smith (D-Norco), Sen. Patrick Connick (R-Marrero), Sen. Louie Bernard (R-Natchitoches), Sen. Franklin Foil (R-Baton Rouge) and Sen. Greg Tarver (D-Shreveport).
Thanks Mickey. Bookmarked.
Posted by Rabby
Member since Mar 2021
683 posts
Posted on 5/17/23 at 7:07 pm to
quote:

The problem IMO is that the language of the 2A does seem to preclude such a requirement.***


***(Setting aside the question of whether the 2A ... or the Bill of Rights as a whole ... was ever intended to limit anyone other than the FEDERAL government, as compared to state/local).
You do have a couple of points, but there are counterpoints to consider:

We both know how the federal government pushed its influence into state and local affairs. That mixed bag is in place now, so I agree that we should move on...

And there are no guarantees that careless people will not err. However, a process of mitigating the likelihood of injuries due to ignorance is a reasonable goal. Some training seems more than a reasonable expectation for carrying something is serious as a handgun.

As to what is and is not an infringement, I want to point out that no right is absolute although this one is most strongly endorsed. Infringement is the strongest statement of support that I have found in the US Constitution. However, there are many examples of regulations of firearms which have at least been ignored, if not plainly upheld so far - even in Heller.

The prefatory clause language of "well regulated militia" seems helpful here (which is a rare position for me as I would normally prefer to eliminate it.) But it does state a purpose and that purpose gives us some guidance - not in outlining possible restriction of arms from private citizens, but I would argue that it is only helpful in understanding purpose and that purpose helps us with process. The purpose is a responsibly armed citizenry which is obtained through citizens being armed.
The "well regulated" language refers to something which functions as intended rather than an excuse for citizens being restricted from owning and carrying arms.
Contrast the New York and New Jersey policies which were ruled unconstitutional with those of Louisiana. One group was clearly a scheme of intentionally depriving people of having the use of arms under any circumstances while the other has a process fashioned to facilitate this right in a reasonable and safe manner. Consider Ezell in the 7th Circuit which required qualification at local ranges which were regulated out of existence for another example of a thinly veiled process of stifling gun ownership and carriage.
Where has a state been barred from setting a process for regulating concealed carry? Not banning, but setting reasonable regulation which does not have the effect of being a thinly veiled ban?
Where did Scalia or any other justice ever state that training was an infringement?
Where do they state that having a records check for a concealed carry permit is an infringement? Actually, Scalia seems to state the opposite in Heller. Even the onerous licensing and registration processes of New York were left in place by Heller. (Yes, I saw that this was not actually addressed because the plaintiff in Heller chose not to press that issue. But it is what it is, so there is no barrier to some regulation - especially for concealed carry. But I am not in favor of draconian measures here - just some basic training and qualification much as exists currently.)
Where is there a limit regarding standards and/or qualifications for concealed carry?
What I see is a pattern of allowing genuine processes which facilitate responsible gun carriage without being a de-facto barrier to this activity.
So the real question is whether a reasonable regulation constitutes an infringement.
What would be the method for sifting between these possibly conflicting interests of creating permissible regulation and avoiding unconstitutional infringement?
I argue that there is not a ban on requiring some form of training before permitting people to carry a concealed weapon.
What cites can you show to the contrary?

(BTW, I enjoy having a reasoned discussion. You made me think this more deeply by challenging my position.
Thanks)
Posted by ProbyOne
Louisiana
Member since Dec 2004
1923 posts
Posted on 5/17/23 at 7:15 pm to
“convicted murderers should be able to legally purchase firearms”

“convicted violent felons should be able to legally purchase firearms”

If you can say this with a straight face then I’m not sure how to respond. There is a reason these people are not allowed to serve in the military. You can’t infringe on the right they forfeited.

Eta Siri grammar
This post was edited on 5/17/23 at 7:16 pm
Posted by Rabby
Member since Mar 2021
683 posts
Posted on 5/17/23 at 7:25 pm to
quote:

No, they are in prison. After their sentence, they certainly deserve all rights restored. Don’t like that? Increase sentence lengths to reflect the crime. When they are released, all rights restored.
So in your eyes, released felons - even those convicted of crimes of violence regain all firearms rights upon release from prison?
The laws and current practice are against you. You also fail to understand how periods of supervised release or the state equivalents function.
Thanks for playing.
quote:

States it right here

Shall not be infringed

No if’s, no and’s, no buts.


But, convicted felons are legally barred from firearms ownership by state and federal laws. The Supreme Court has ruled that both are constitutional laws. In fact, the Heller decisions specifically mentions this situation and endorses it. Other rights are also routinely set aside for convicted felons.
You also seem to not understand that there is a distinction between regulation and infringement. These have not yet been sorted out by the courts. What we have seen is that schemes to ban guns under false pretenses have been ruled unconstitutional while some regulations have not been. For example, show a case where background checks for concealed carry permits have been ruled unconstitutional. Show where laws requiring training and/or permits where the training is actually available have been so ruled by the Supreme Court.
I'll wait...
Posted by LemmyLives
Texas
Member since Mar 2019
7214 posts
Posted on 5/17/23 at 7:28 pm to
quote:

That mixed bag is in place now, so I agree that we should move on...


That's really convenient. That's not what the tenth amendment says. Now, I am obviously not blaming you, but the judicial branch has seriously abdicated what could be considered their primary responsibility (to follow the US Constitution.) The ship has obviously sailed, and I assume you're being cavalier about moving on is a TD method for expediency in argument. I will bitch about it until I die.

quote:

So the real question is whether a reasonable regulation constitutes an infringement.


You're continuing to make my point. This year, it's JBE that says that vets that have received mental health treatment are "risks." After he gets ousted, a Catholic Republican decides that parents that believes their kids are trans are mentally deficient and are red flagged.

Government doesn't get to decide. A government you don't like will be in power in short order, no matter who you support.

I appreciate your examinations of USSC readings, and your focus on Scalia, and I am not well read enough to dispute your points without research I'm not going to do while drinking beer. I wish you would join some threads to talk about who gets to make voting laws occasionally, I'd like your perspective to challenge mine so I can get smarter.
Posted by bhtigerfan
Baton Rouge
Member since Sep 2008
30981 posts
Posted on 5/17/23 at 7:34 pm to
quote:

“convicted murderers should be able to legally purchase firearms”

“convicted violent felons should be able to legally purchase firearms”

If you can say this with a straight face then I’m not sure how to respond. There is a reason these people are not allowed to serve in the military. You can’t infringe on the right they forfeited.

Exactly.

I’m a huge 2nd Amendment proponent, but dangerous violent felons forfeited that right when they committed violent crimes.
Posted by Timeoday
Easter Island
Member since Aug 2020
11637 posts
Posted on 5/17/23 at 7:34 pm to
quote:

My goal is that we produce well trained citizens who can responsibly manage arms.


So you will not have a problem when schools begin to teach students how to responsibly manage arms. I believe that is a fantastic idea.

Citizens learn responsible behavior without having to register something with the goooooooooooooooooooooberment.
Posted by Herooftheday
Member since Feb 2021
3830 posts
Posted on 5/17/23 at 7:45 pm to
quote:

super majority can override the veto



A cat can swim too. It's a can vs will. We learned last year we have put folks in Congress with zero will and zero leadership. Senate president Page even said he would not and does not foster support for bills in Congress, even the most obvious republican fundamental bills. The republican majority leader y'all. If the Louisiana GOP were represented by one person, it would be Page. An absolute guppy with no political fortitude, structure or home. You could call him every political party title and be correct.
Posted by Clames
Member since Oct 2010
17129 posts
Posted on 5/17/23 at 7:49 pm to
quote:

I'd rather the police be able to confiscate guns from the drug dealers on the corner.


You moron, if they are dealing drugs or have prior felonies their guns still get taken anyway. Seriously, if you don’t know the laws then STFU.
Posted by Rabby
Member since Mar 2021
683 posts
Posted on 5/17/23 at 7:50 pm to
quote:

What you need to put into perspective is that "May issue," where a Sheriff or other LEO was required to approve your access to a permit
I supported and still support the "shall issue" language in our concealed carry laws.

quote:

Why, exactly, does an old black lady in the 9th ward need to pass an accuracy test to blast someone that is trying to steal her social security check when she leaves the bank from three feet away? What about the lady with a crazy ex that doesn't want to get hit again, needs 8 hours of "training," in order to carry a gun.
So in your world, people of any race, sex or age should begin blasting away with zero training. Those rounds are going somewhere and with untrained people firing them, that is not likely into the bad guy. You seem to not consider the lives of everyone else of any significance.
Also, your scenario of the check being stolen is not an example of a legal shooting situation in Louisiana. You are an example of someone in need of training.

But what I am supprting is an emphasis on serious training for people so that they have the ability to exercise this important right.
There are a few cheap and/or free options. Look at the Home Defense Foundation. We should begin a movement for expanding such training organizations which can help people learn. (I am not a big government guy.) But we should also train our citizens in basic skills which should include firearms safety.
quote:

What if you got a DUI ten years ago?
This is already addressed in Louisiana.
Posted by Timeoday
Easter Island
Member since Aug 2020
11637 posts
Posted on 5/17/23 at 7:55 pm to
quote:

But, convicted felons are legally barred from firearms ownership by state and federal laws. The Supreme Court has ruled that both are constitutional laws.


Bruen provides the opening to removing the bar regarding the historical interpretation. Beautiful and needed.

I see the arguments herein are the result of the softening of society. Historically, someone convicted of murder was eliminated completely and someone convicted of violence was removed from society for a few decades.

Hence, the arguments regarding violent felons possessing arms are now held because violent felons are released from incarceration daily with minimal time served.

Their violence now creates the fear our gooooooooooooooooooooberment will use to remove our liberty. But as a man once said, "So, as we set out this year to defeat the divisive forces that would take freedom away, I want to say those fighting words for everyone within the sound of my voice to hear and to heed, and especially for you, Mr. Gore: 'From my cold, dead hands!" (referencing his weapon)

You know Gore. He is the guy who invented the internet and cheerleaded successfully a human induced "global warming" hoax now known as "climate change."

Posted by Junky
Louisiana
Member since Oct 2005
8562 posts
Posted on 5/17/23 at 7:58 pm to
Ha. You gun-regulating progressives love to rewrite the constitution.

It’s simple…Shall not
Posted by Clames
Member since Oct 2010
17129 posts
Posted on 5/17/23 at 8:02 pm to
quote:

But what I am supprting is an emphasis on serious training for people so that they have the ability to exercise this important right.


That's fine, as long as it isn't government mandated. Training should never be a bar to legally concealed carrying, it simply isn't needed beyond knowing the applicable laws and the proper function and handling of whatever firearm is carried. The training required for a LA CCP is nothing, few rounds into a target with a reload and then several hours of a lecture on the legal stuff. It's not worth clinging to.
Posted by Rabby
Member since Mar 2021
683 posts
Posted on 5/17/23 at 8:16 pm to
quote:

The ship has obviously sailed, and I assume you're being cavalier about moving on is a TD method for expediency in argument.
We actually agree, but I was following Hank's lead as I see no real point in debating this rabbit trail issue when the focus here is on another issue.

quote:

You're continuing to make my point.
Not surprising as we seem to agree to a degree. But even Scalia mentions mental health issues as a potential bar to 2nd Amendment rights. We just do not yet have clarity as to where those limits are.

quote:

Government doesn't get to decide. A government you don't like will be in power in short order, no matter who you support.

But the point is that we have Supreme Court rulings which set the limits within which these mercurial politicians are supposed to adhere. I am not discussing the politicians, but rather trying to outline what guidance I think the rulings and Constitution provide. As in most issues, there are competing interests between freedoms and what is reasonably expected from people as they exercise their freedoms. Launching rounds is inherently an issue of concern to the general public so I would think that some degree of training and qualification is reasonable. Scalia seems to have agreed with me.
quote:

I appreciate your examinations of USSC readings, and your focus on Scalia
Thanks. I view Scalia as the most authoritative source on this topic and there are several justices who agreed with that assessment. I will admit that he laid a couple of eggs on the 1st Amendment in my thinking, but that is another topic.
quote:

I wish you would join some threads to talk about who gets to make voting laws occasionally, I'd like your perspective to challenge mine so I can get smarter.
I think that I have attained my level of acceptable controversy for a while. Besides, while I do appreciate the compliment, that is not an area where I have any aptitude or much experience.
Posted by Marshhen
Port Eads
Member since Nov 2018
733 posts
Posted on 5/17/23 at 8:19 pm to
quote:

thus breaking the law and giving LEOs an excuse to arrest them


Do you not know what concealed means?
Posted by Rabby
Member since Mar 2021
683 posts
Posted on 5/17/23 at 8:21 pm to
quote:

Ha. You gun-regulating progressives love to rewrite the constitution.

It’s simple…Shall not
I am simply quoting and applying what I see in Scalia's writings. You know, that infamous progressive...
Posted by Junky
Louisiana
Member since Oct 2005
8562 posts
Posted on 5/17/23 at 8:27 pm to
You have quite the attachment to this restriction. How much do you make off the permits?

I did have a serious question: since you believe in some semblance of “reasonable training” for a concealed carry in the name of safety, shouldn’t, by the same logic, poll taxes be reintroduced along with civics testing to ensure one understands our government and how it works before voting?
This post was edited on 5/17/23 at 8:41 pm
Posted by LemmyLives
Texas
Member since Mar 2019
7214 posts
Posted on 5/17/23 at 8:27 pm to
quote:

So in your world, people of any race, sex or age should begin blasting away with zero training


Yes. Age of majority is 18. Free and clear after that.

We're talking about handguns and concealed carry. People in LA have been able to open carry handguns for a while. If someone's gran that hasn't been to a range in five years wants to open carry to Rouse's, do I support it? Yep. Non concealed doesn't require a permit, so think a bit about the position you're taking. Why can't the same granny put the gun in her purse?

I know I will sound like a broken record, but what is, "serious training," and who defines it? That's a subjective line that I do not like one single bit. Like Adam Carolla has stated, smokers though they just had to sit in a separate section. Then they're outside. Then they're 15 feet from the entrance of any business.

Would you like everyone to be a Webelos Scout, where I first learned not to point a gun at anything you don't want to destroy, how to cross a fence with a shotgun, etc?

I put zero, absolutely ZERO trust in legislatures in states to not expand "requirements" for permit or ownership. We have example after example of scope creep from legislatures on important rights. We also have bills that are thousands of pages long that nobody can read that get passed in hours, which include line items which people don't notice until they get charged with something.

So, no. It's the least consultant answer I've given to anything in writing in years
Posted by 94LSU
Member since May 2023
451 posts
Posted on 5/17/23 at 9:38 pm to
How restrictive is the proposed Constitutional Carry law going to be? LA allows licensed concealed carry but it's one of the more restrictive in the country AFAIK. I was really surprised by the limits when I got mine. Can't carry at any event that required a public permit to hold, so that means every event that a crowd might be expected: no parades, no festivals, no fairs, concerts, sporting events, etc. Can't carry into any establishment that serves alcohol - not just bars but any restaurant that serves alcohol (i.e. every restaurant in the state). Can't carry in any building where an elected official *might* have an office, so that's every public building, library, etc. What else is left, the grocery store and the gas pump? Really the only benefit I've taken advantage of is the no wait when filling out 4473's. Of course the lifetime CC license disqualifies you from even that perk since an expiration date is required to bypass the check.
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