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Started By
Message
re: Josh Hart with 23 points in his Blazers debut
Posted on 2/13/22 at 9:47 am to corndeaux
Posted on 2/13/22 at 9:47 am to corndeaux
quote:
Curry comp is weird.
It’s really not though.
Before Kerr, and Kerr year one, the Warriors hid Curry defensively, than told him, listen, if we want this team to reach its potential you need to step up defensively too. And he did, slowly over time but today he’s straight up matching up against 2nd offensive options at times and doing a darn good job.
BI has largely been on that same path, but Bi is much more naturally built to be a good defender(and from LA we KNOW he can be), and now is the time where he needs his own Kerr come-to-Jesus moment. He needs to be told for this to work, YOU need to take on more responsibility and do so effectively, otherwise, we are capping this teams potential.
It’s the difference between does BI want to be seen like a Carmelo, or a Kobe/Tatum/KD two-way player? And if he’s just gonna be a Carmelo, this Zion/BI/CJ/JV/Herb project is ultimately gonna fail to reach its potential
2
Posted on 2/13/22 at 10:10 am to Bronc
Ingram really needs to spend the offseason working on lateral quickness drills to better stay in front of his man.
Posted on 2/13/22 at 10:12 am to GOP_Tiger
The reason that I haven't complained about BI getting left out of the all-star game is that he really didn't deserve it.
His defense is simply too poor. You can see that he's trying harder this season than he did last year with SVG, but it still sucks.
His defense is simply too poor. You can see that he's trying harder this season than he did last year with SVG, but it still sucks.
Posted on 2/13/22 at 10:27 am to Bronc
quote:
Before Kerr, and Kerr year one, the Warriors hid Curry defensively, than told him, listen, if we want this team to reach its potential you need to step up defensively too.
The Warriors had a top 3 defense during Mark Jackson's last year and in Kerr's first year they had the best defense in the league while winning a title.
Curry needed to improve and he has. But his defense wasn't sinking the Warriors and he certainly was not as bad as Ingram or Zion have been
Posted on 2/13/22 at 10:36 am to corndeaux
quote:
Curry needed to improve and he has. But his defense wasn't sinking the Warriors and he certainly was not as bad as Ingram or Zion have been
He was much worse at one point, but the nature of the guard spot, like with Trae or Garland, it’s the easiest position on the court to cover up defensive deficiencies in if that player is elite offensively and as an offensive organizer.
Which is why even moreso with BI, he needs to step up defensively for this project to work. Because it is much, much more difficult to cover up someone like BI that isn’t an elite off the dribble perimeter creator and the nature of his game still requires players like CJ to compliment him and get him in his spots a good chunk of the time. Because there are only a select few guys that cover all your assignments and provide the necessary complimentary creation traits a player like him needs.
Posted on 2/13/22 at 10:40 am to GOP_Tiger
quote:
You can see that he's trying harder this season than he did last year with SVG, but it still sucks.
He is trying harder, but at the same time against Miami we still had him matched up against PJ Tucker. When what needed to happen that game is BI needed to man up, take Jimmy Butler so Herb could take Lowry and disrupt their point of attack, let Graham or CJ hide on Tucker like a lot of smaller guard teams have done, and lock in.
We probably still don’t win, but it’s the mentality and expectation that needs to change
Posted on 2/13/22 at 10:51 am to Bronc
quote:
Which is why even moreso with BI, he needs to step up defensively for this project to work
Right. The only difference here is you think he can step up and be a plus defender. I don't, but also don't think he needs to be. Just try off ball and within the scheme. If does that, I think it can work.
Like we agreed 4 posts ago, if he and Zion can't play reasonable defense, this project is DOA
Posted on 2/13/22 at 11:20 am to corndeaux
quote:
Right. The only difference here is you think he can step up and be a plus defender. I don't
I mean this isn’t really debatable though, he was a good to very good defender in LA. It’s simply a matter of will, effort, and priority.
Lebron was in his arse about defending in LA and the Lakers had him out there guarding guys like Kyrie:
LINK
He is more than capable, and as we move toward a CJ/Herb/BI/Zion/JV unit, he is going to have to find that sort of dog again if we are to make it deep into the playoffs. And for me, when Zion gets healthy and you have CJ and Jonas as well, the excuse well runs dry for his lack of pride and hiding himself
So yes we agree, and yes we seem to disagree, because BI has high defensive potential and we’ve actually seen him realize it when he wants to….problem is he rather focus on offense and rest on defense and that needs to stop sooner than later.
He and Herb should be a nightmare opposing teams fear, instead, we are desperately trying to see if Naji or others can step up and help provide the lost Hart role of taking the second assignment so BI can stay hiding on the Pj Tucker’s of the world
This post was edited on 2/13/22 at 11:39 am
Posted on 2/13/22 at 12:35 pm to Bronc
quote:
mean this isn’t really debatable though, he was a good to very good defender in LA. It’s simply a matter of will, effort, and priority.
Lebron was in his arse about defending in LA and the Lakers had him out there guarding guys like Kyrie:
LINK
It's not debatable because you have one link to one game where he defended Kyrie well in 2019?
Ok. Here's my one LINK from 2019 too.
Ingram has never really been the guy you think he can be on defense. Hope you're right and he gets there!
Posted on 2/13/22 at 1:11 pm to corndeaux
I do think there's a chance when Zion returns they can outscore teams. JV will be your 4th option on offense for crying out loud. But Zion is really going to need to be the one to step up on defense. BI is actually playing as hard on defense as I've seen him this season. But being asked to be the 3rd best guy on defense is much different than being the 2nd best guy. He's gone from useful harassing with his long arms for most of the season to being a step slow all game since the trade.
Posted on 2/13/22 at 1:37 pm to CelticDog
quote:So, by watching a player play of TV, you can determine a very specific weight he should be at? You must be one hell of a nutritionist and athletic trainer.
hence my wish to see zion at 238 lbs.
Posted on 2/13/22 at 1:41 pm to Bronc
quote:How in the world do you know that the assignments have anything at all to do with his "mentality?" Logic would tell you it has more to do with his coaches' decisions. It impossible to think your or I know more than the coaches or know what goes on in every player's minds.
He is trying harder, but at the same time against Miami we still had him matched up against PJ Tucker. When what needed to happen that game is BI needed to man up, take Jimmy Butler so Herb could take Lowry and disrupt their point of attack, let Graham or CJ hide on Tucker like a lot of smaller guard teams have done, and lock in.
We probably still don’t win, but it’s the mentality and expectation that needs to change
Posted on 2/13/22 at 3:45 pm to NOSHAU
I've been pretty pleased with BI's defense this season. (eye test). I've seen a consistent amount of multiple efforts and his length has been used well to challenge plays. The On/Off DRtg says he's helping the defense too.
The DRtg is 109.6 with Ingram on the court and 111.7 off. So 2 points better with Ingram. Last season the defense was 5 points worse when he was on the court. DRtg of 114.2 with Ingram on court and 109.7 with him off court.
The eye test says the last 2 games where he's been asked to go from 3rd defender to 2nd defender he's not doing well. I saw many instances where he's still trying as hard but was a step slow. I don't know if that something that could be fixed with adjustment or if being your 3rd defender is his ceiling, but hopefully being the 3rd defender is all we need him to be. That seems like a reasonable ask, although it does expect Zion to step up when he returns and be that 2nd defender.
The DRtg is 109.6 with Ingram on the court and 111.7 off. So 2 points better with Ingram. Last season the defense was 5 points worse when he was on the court. DRtg of 114.2 with Ingram on court and 109.7 with him off court.
The eye test says the last 2 games where he's been asked to go from 3rd defender to 2nd defender he's not doing well. I saw many instances where he's still trying as hard but was a step slow. I don't know if that something that could be fixed with adjustment or if being your 3rd defender is his ceiling, but hopefully being the 3rd defender is all we need him to be. That seems like a reasonable ask, although it does expect Zion to step up when he returns and be that 2nd defender.
Posted on 2/13/22 at 4:32 pm to NOSHAU
quote:
How in the world do you know that the assignments have anything at all to do with his "mentality?" Logic would tell you it has more to do with his coaches' decisions. It impossible to think your or I know more than the coaches or know what goes on in every player's minds.
If a guy like Bi goes to coach and says, let me guard X player, I got this, they are going to let him.
If you want to blame Willie, fine, but I guess we also need to blame Gentry and SVG for also ultimately asking Bi to step up defensively, and ultimately hiding him on lesser offensive players as seasons go on.
Posted on 2/13/22 at 4:40 pm to TigerinATL
quote:
being the 3rd defender is all we need him to be.
So out of CJ, Herb, BI, Zion, Jonas who is the second defender?
See the problem quickly emerging?
Unless Zion literally comes back in better shape than Duke Zion, it simple has to be Ingram.
Like I said, it's approaching time where a come-to-jesus moment is needed with him and defense. At least if we have higher aspirations than being just a 1st or 2nd round team.
Probably not this season, but this talk of "I need to get better defensively" needs to go from talk, to actionable. It is better this season, but it's still not much more than average, with only flashes of actual effort put in. And because you see those flashes, and his play at times in LA, it is clear he can be a good defender, he just has to lock in and take the same pride there as he does in his iso game and offense. And for me, the excuses will run dry next season if this core is healthy.
This post was edited on 2/13/22 at 4:42 pm
Posted on 2/13/22 at 4:59 pm to Bronc
quote:
So out of CJ, Herb, BI, Zion, Jonas who is the second defender?
See the problem quickly emerging?
It has to be Zion unless you find a way to turn CJ into Dejounte Murray or SGA.
Last season before he got shut down he had played his way into shape and was looking pretty good making blocks from the weakside he hadn't been making early in the season. His Pre ASB DRtg was 116.3, the last 15 games for Zion his DRtg was 98.2.
He was getting a decent amount of bench unit run in that stretch, so I'm sure that plays a role in the numbers, but I still think it says if he's in shape in a system he knows his role in, that he can play good defense.
This post was edited on 2/13/22 at 5:00 pm
Posted on 2/13/22 at 5:13 pm to TigerinATL
There are two reasons to believe that a fit Zion can and will become a plus defender.
1) He was a plus defender at Duke
2) He has to, if we are ever going to contend
1) He was a plus defender at Duke
2) He has to, if we are ever going to contend
Posted on 2/13/22 at 5:29 pm to TigerinATL
quote:
t has to be Zion unless you find a way to turn CJ into Dejounte Murray or SGA.
Even at Duke Zion has never had the lateral quickness or wingspan to guard the more elusive wings and guards, and that’s what your number two defender is gonna have to do some nights.
I’m not saying he can’t also be a plus defender, that’s gonna be a key to our ceiling as well, and he also needs to step up, but he’s not going to be taking on the Booker’s, Mitchell’s, Klay’s, Lavine’s, Tatum’s, Butler’s, Herro’s etc. If Herb can’t because of other assignments, it’s Bi that will have to take up those challenges because Zion is not laterally quick enough to stay with them, even at peak power.
Which is why I will continue to argue the ceiling of our defense, and our team, is heavily dependent on whether BI will step up finally
This post was edited on 2/13/22 at 5:31 pm
Posted on 2/13/22 at 5:42 pm to Bronc
One thing that will happen is one of the Big 3 will probably play a lot of minutes with the bench unit. So hopefully you have at least another Josh Hart level defender to be the first guy off the bench.
Posted on 2/13/22 at 5:50 pm to TigerinATL
That is also very true.
I think the more I think about it, unfortunately, Josh Hart is sort of like the ideal 6th man for this team.
An Iggy like Swiss army wing that D up other good wings but does a lot of high energy things to keep the engine going like rebounding, fast breaks, playmaking, and occasionally get hot from three
I think the more I think about it, unfortunately, Josh Hart is sort of like the ideal 6th man for this team.
An Iggy like Swiss army wing that D up other good wings but does a lot of high energy things to keep the engine going like rebounding, fast breaks, playmaking, and occasionally get hot from three
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