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re: How does a program like Tennessee have such trouble getting a coach?
Posted on 12/6/12 at 12:59 pm to RealityTiger
Posted on 12/6/12 at 12:59 pm to RealityTiger
I think it's mostly due to money. Their athletic department is short on cash right now. Tennessee had a $4 million deficit in the last fiscal year. They really can't afford to pay for a top coach. There's nothing wrong with the job. They just don't have the dough to attract the best coaching candidates.
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Posted on 12/6/12 at 1:03 pm to rocket31
The emergence of the SEC has really hurt Tennessee. The teams are more competitive now, and Tennessee can't pound on the weaker conference teams like it once could.
Tenn is having to fight for recruits with teams in the east such as S. Carolina that it didn't used to. Even fertile recruiting grounds in Tennessee, such as Memphis, are closer to Ole Miss and State.
Also the emergence of West Virgina and V. Tech over the last 15 years has hurt them in recruiting as well.
The increased competitiveness of recruiting added with a couple of bad coaching regimes has gotten them where they are today. IMO
Tenn is having to fight for recruits with teams in the east such as S. Carolina that it didn't used to. Even fertile recruiting grounds in Tennessee, such as Memphis, are closer to Ole Miss and State.
Also the emergence of West Virgina and V. Tech over the last 15 years has hurt them in recruiting as well.
The increased competitiveness of recruiting added with a couple of bad coaching regimes has gotten them where they are today. IMO
Posted on 12/6/12 at 1:05 pm to Moustache
quote:
It's not like the state of Alabama is LOADED. SUre, they have pretty damn good talent, but take a look at their recruiting class.
The state of Alabama (they have to share with Auburn) only has 13 players rated as 4 star or better per rivals.
Tennessee on the other hand has 9 and they don't really have to share it. (a good coach can overcome Vandy pretty fast IMO)
That's not that big a difference. The key is Tennessee getting back into GA, NC, and SC. That would require either UGA dropping down like in the 90s or USCe dropping back down. Honestly, i can see USCe dropping off after Spurrier leaves them.
Just another comparison: Last year the state of Alabama had 12 4 star or better recruits.
Tennessee had 10. not that big a difference between Bama and Tennessee IMO.
The level of player from the state of Alabama is waaaay better on average than that from Tennessee.
1. District of Columbia (9)
601,723
1 NFL playerper 66,858 people
2. Louisiana (61)
4,533,372
1 NFL playerper 74,318 people
3. Mississippi (33)
2,967,297
1 NFL playerper 89,918 people
4. Alabama (49)
4,779,736
1 NFL player per 97,546 people
5. Florida (189)
18,801,310
1 NFL player per 99,478 people
Tennessee isn't even ranked in the top 10 states.
Posted on 12/6/12 at 1:05 pm to Moustache
quote:
The state of Alabama (they have to share with Auburn) only has 13 players rated as 4 star or better per rivals.
FWIW, the 2008 recruiting class is largely responsible for setting Alabama on the track that they are right now and that class had a ton of in-state kids who turned out to be major contributors. Marcell Dareus, Julio Jones, Robert Lester, Courtney Upshaw, and Mark Barron were all in-state recruits from Alabama in the 2008 class. There's no way Saban rebuilds Alabama into a power so quickly without the contributions from those players.
This post was edited on 12/6/12 at 1:07 pm
Posted on 12/6/12 at 1:05 pm to Moustache
quote:
If a coach can lock down Memphis (the only major in state city)
Easier said than done. Arkansas, Ole Miss, Vandy, State, Alabama and Auburn are all closer to Memphis than Tennessee. Then you can throw in LSU and Missouri that are basically the same distance. Its not very normal to have 8 schools in your own conference be closer or as close as you to your nearest instate hotbed of talent.
Posted on 12/6/12 at 1:13 pm to FlukerFlakes
quote:
Tennessee isn't even ranked in the top 10 states.
plus stache isn't taking into account positions of those 4 stars
so TN has 9 4 stars, maybe 3 are WR, 3 RB and 3 DBS
so left with crap lineman on both sides, no QB, no LB's etc....just an example
and Memphis hasn't been a UT hotbed in forever. Hell Ole Miss has a bigger alumni base and in roads than the new UT does
it's a difficult job to say the least. This isn't CFB of the last 90's when UT was really a player. Those days are long gone
Posted on 12/6/12 at 1:18 pm to Moustache
quote:
The state of Alabama (they have to share with Auburn) only has 13 players rated as 4 star or better per rivals. Tennessee on the other hand has 9 and they don't really have to share it. (a good coach can overcome Vandy pretty fast IMO)
Roughly half those (I counted five of 10, but I was looking at ESPN) come from Greater Memphis. Same with 2011 and 2010.
Problem for Tennessee is that Memphis is closer to at seven other SEC schools than Knoxville -- Bama, Ole Miss, Mississippi State, Auburn, LSU, Arkansas and (edit to add) Vandy -- and Missouri is the same distannce.
So it's a city that's not particularly loyal to the Vols. Sure, Tennessee probably has the biggest SEC presence in Memphis, but Ole Miss is right there with it, MSU has its share and even Bama has its share. Heck Ole Miss is practically a Memphis Metro-area school.
So Tennessee recruiting Memphis is not akin to LSU recruiting New Orlans, Alabama recruiting Birmingham, Georgia recruiting Atlanta or Florida recruiting Orlando, Tampa and Jacksonville.
Given that, comparing the raw numbers between Alabama and Tennessee is only part of the picture. Alabama's name carries much more weight in Montgomery and Mobile than Tennessee's does in Memphis, I think.
Again, not that Tennessee lacks presence in Memphis. But I'd suggest Auburn still fights uphill to recruit Montgomery against Saban while Ole Miss and Bama probably feel like Memphis is a level playing field vs. Tennessee.
This post was edited on 12/6/12 at 1:28 pm
Posted on 12/6/12 at 1:23 pm to stapuffmarshy
Sorry, but I think you guys put way too much stock into the recruiting sites.
Its fine to point out that there is talent, but I wouldn't say they are infallible or the end all be all in recruiting.
Tennessee's problem is UGA, Carolina, Clemson UNC, Bama, Auburn, and LSU are all no longer down allowing them to go into their states and raid their recruits. Florida isn't as wide open as it was with USF, FIU, FAU, UCF, as well as the usual players snagging recruits plus the BIG10 schools and Louisville going into South Florida for players now.
Its fine to point out that there is talent, but I wouldn't say they are infallible or the end all be all in recruiting.
Tennessee's problem is UGA, Carolina, Clemson UNC, Bama, Auburn, and LSU are all no longer down allowing them to go into their states and raid their recruits. Florida isn't as wide open as it was with USF, FIU, FAU, UCF, as well as the usual players snagging recruits plus the BIG10 schools and Louisville going into South Florida for players now.
Posted on 12/6/12 at 1:25 pm to RealityTiger
It's not the program it used to be.
Unless they hit a grand slam coaching wise, it won't be anytime soon.
They used to do things program-wide that everyone does now. Nationally recruit. They always did well in Atlanta. They were at one time a step ahead in their recruiting techniques and everyone has caught up.
Unless they hit a grand slam coaching wise, it won't be anytime soon.
They used to do things program-wide that everyone does now. Nationally recruit. They always did well in Atlanta. They were at one time a step ahead in their recruiting techniques and everyone has caught up.
Posted on 12/6/12 at 1:26 pm to DaleDenton
quote:
I think you guys put way too much stock into the recruiting sites.
why? there is direct positive correlation between recruiting rankings and team success; to deny that is foolish (no offense).
Posted on 12/6/12 at 1:27 pm to rocket31
quote:
why? there is direct positive correlation between recruiting rankings and team success; to deny that is foolish (no offense).
Then explain Auburn's 0-8 SEC success, no offense.
Or on topic Tennessee's past 3 seasons.
Posted on 12/6/12 at 1:29 pm to DaleDenton
quote:
Then explain Auburn's 0-8 SEC success, no offense.
there are obviously outliers as with most any statistic.
Kansas State is another outlier, but in general the higher ranked recruit the more likely he will get drafted or become an all-american.
quote:
Tennessee's past 3 seasons.
UT has been recruiting in the bottom half of teh SEC for years now. Finishing in the top 20 doesnt mean crap if you are still 7th or 8th best in your conference.
This post was edited on 12/6/12 at 1:30 pm
Posted on 12/6/12 at 1:30 pm to DaleDenton
quote:
Tennessee's problem is UGA, Carolina, Clemson UNC, Bama, Auburn, and LSU are all no longer down allowing them to go into their states and raid their recruits.
I actually think you are agreeing with the point we're making. For example, when Tennessee was competing for national titles in the 90s, they were getting a lot of good players in Louisiana. That was before Saban. Now, I don't think Tennessee can come in and get those players any more and I think the coaching candidates know it.
Posted on 12/6/12 at 1:35 pm to CourseyCorridor
quote:
I actually think you are agreeing with the point we're making. For example, when Tennessee was competing for national titles in the 90s, they were getting a lot of good players in Louisiana. That was before Saban. Now, I don't think Tennessee can come in and get those players any more and I think the coaching candidates know it.
If the point you were making is there was less competition or Tennessee was competitive due to others being down, big fish little pond type deal. Then, Yes, I would agree.
With everyone competing at their best Tennessee inherit disadvantages are showing, there isn't much they can do about it. Ole Miss was a powerhouse at one time as well...
Posted on 12/6/12 at 1:36 pm to PuntBamaPunt
Posted on 12/6/12 at 1:36 pm to RealityTiger
hiring a quality, high-in-demand HC is never easy no matter what program you have.
USC is a top 3 job but they had to settle for Lane Kiffin because time wasn't right. Just because you're USC, Texas, Florida dosen't mean you can poach any top coach you want. most top coaches high in demand are likely happy at where they are
let's hypothetically say Miles went to Arkansas and LSU is looking for a HC. it's not a cake walk by any means and you can't automatically poach top coaches even if you're LSU.
USC is a top 3 job but they had to settle for Lane Kiffin because time wasn't right. Just because you're USC, Texas, Florida dosen't mean you can poach any top coach you want. most top coaches high in demand are likely happy at where they are
let's hypothetically say Miles went to Arkansas and LSU is looking for a HC. it's not a cake walk by any means and you can't automatically poach top coaches even if you're LSU.
This post was edited on 12/6/12 at 1:38 pm
Posted on 12/6/12 at 1:38 pm to Crompdaddy8
quote:
USC is a top 3 job but they had to settle for Lane Kiffin because time wasn't right.
Because they were facing the NCAA ban-hammer.
Timing had nothing to do with it.
Posted on 12/6/12 at 1:39 pm to CourseyCorridor
It really comes down to coaching.
Back in the day, Fulmer was considered the SEC benchmark (shocking, I know).
He recruited nationally (a pre-req at UT), they had Peyton Manning's exposure to sustain them for years even after he left (a hug cog in making their program a national power), and he had a great staff (Chavis, Cutcliffe, etc).
Enter Saban, Les, and Urbs (6 MNCs combined, another coming). Florida and Georgia were still there. Auburn had a miracle NC year. Spurrier has made USCe into a top 15 program.
UT got passed, plain and simple.
Back in the day, Fulmer was considered the SEC benchmark (shocking, I know).
He recruited nationally (a pre-req at UT), they had Peyton Manning's exposure to sustain them for years even after he left (a hug cog in making their program a national power), and he had a great staff (Chavis, Cutcliffe, etc).
Enter Saban, Les, and Urbs (6 MNCs combined, another coming). Florida and Georgia were still there. Auburn had a miracle NC year. Spurrier has made USCe into a top 15 program.
UT got passed, plain and simple.
Posted on 12/6/12 at 1:39 pm to Wishnitwas1998
their problem is their Athletic Department. Good coaches pay attention to athletic departments. it's the sole reason we were able to get BB from Wisc. It's the sole reason he left Wisc.
Tenn's is garbage. anyone who goes there, is going to get axed and is going to end their career. tis' that simple.
Tenn's is garbage. anyone who goes there, is going to get axed and is going to end their career. tis' that simple.
Posted on 12/6/12 at 1:42 pm to Crompdaddy8
quote:
it's not a cake walk by any means and you can't automatically poach top coaches even if you're LSU.
Granted. But I think at the end of the day, they'd be lining up for the LSU job. Kiffin went to LA at the tail end of the Reggie Bush/Pete Carroll thing that made people take pause. That put a limit. LSU has no such limit.
They'd be looking at the same thing Nick Saban looked at in 2000: 1. Decent size state (roughly 4.5 million people) with only one BCS-level program. 2. The most NFL players per capita and the most D-I college players per capita. 3. A state that is immensely loyal to its state university from Shreveport to New Orleans and everywhere in between.
The only one of those where Tennessee compares equally to Louisiana is 1. Yes, there's Vandy, but Tennessee should always take what it wants from Vandy. But it doesn't have the players, and other SEC schools are in, or less than an hour from, Tennessee's two biggest markets: Memphis (Ole Miss) and Nshville (Vandy).
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