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re: Every coaching candidate has his drawbacks
Posted on 11/3/16 at 11:37 am to Tiger Tracker
Posted on 11/3/16 at 11:37 am to Tiger Tracker
quote:
after building your own program as an actual HC because they are not the same thing.
Orgeron or who ever comes in is not going to have to build a program. The program is already built. Orgeron, or whoever takes over, is basically going to have to do what Orgeron is doing right now, just run the program that is already there. He will have to recruit (which orgeron does quite well) and have to run spring and fall camp (which Orgeron seems pretty capable of along with his other assitant coaches)
quote:
Just make sure when you keep discussing his HC record you throw the word interim in front of HC.
no I am not going to do that. because he IS THE HEAD COACH as of right now and those are HIS players just as much as they were Miles players when he was the HC.
1
Posted on 11/3/16 at 11:45 am to H-Town Tiger
quote:
If O goes Steve Fisher and wins it all, then give him the job, short of that, I want either a proven guy or and up and comer like molsu said.
well I agree with that. He has to win all his games to prove he is that level of coach that can take over a program like LSU considering that is all he has on his resume. We have the talent to run the table (even though Bama may have way more talent, we are close enough). Before the season we expected Miles to get us to the playoffs this year, so I don't expect less from Orgeron. If he can beat Saben with less talent (thus outcoach Saben) and run the table, I think he would prove that he is a capable coach to run the LSU program.
Posted on 11/3/16 at 11:52 am to boxcar willie
quote:
Orgeron or who ever comes in is not going to have to build a program. The program is already built. Orgeron, or whoever takes over, is basically going to have to do what Orgeron is doing right now, just run the program that is already there
If you think the new HC will just come in and say yep this looks good and kick his feet up you're mistaken. If you're telling me Orgeron won't make any changes and just run everything the miles way then i definitely do not want. All that means is he isn't competent enough to improve/evaluate a program.
quote:
no I am not going to do that. because he IS THE INTERIM HEAD COACH as of right now
FIFY.
It amazes me how blind some people are about what it means to be an interim HC vs a perm HC. If it's basically the same thing, like you are claiming. Tell me 1) how many interim coaches are promoted to perm hc and 2) how many of those promoted actually went on to run a successful program.
Posted on 11/3/16 at 11:57 am to boxcar willie
quote:
He has to win all his games to prove he is that level of coach that can take over a program like LSU considering that is all he has on his resume.
Really? No Ole Miss HC on that resume?
Posted on 11/3/16 at 11:57 am to Tiger Tracker
quote:
All that means is he isn't competent enough to improve/evaluate a program.
he already has improved the program since he took over as head coach as evidenced by the 3 games we have played since he took over as head coach. He will have plenty more opportunities to show to what degree he has improved it over the course of the remaining games.
Posted on 11/3/16 at 12:15 pm to boxcar willie
quote:
he already has improved the program since he took over as head coach as evidenced by the 3 games we have played since he took over as head coach. He will have plenty more opportunities to show to what degree he has improved it over the course of the remaining games.
He did improve the offense by getting rid of cam, and i agree he will have more time to prove it, but looking only at his lsu resume is foolish. You have to consider Ole Miss in his resume. Again, taking over what miles did and adjusting some offense is not the same thing as running a program.
Posted on 11/3/16 at 12:27 pm to Tiger Tracker
quote:
He did improve the offense by getting rid of cam,
the defense and special teams look better also. All facets of the team look much improved since he took over as head coach.
quote:
but looking only at his lsu resume is foolish. You have to consider Ole Miss in his resume.
yea you have look at it, but you also have to put a lot more weight on what he has done recently over what he did 10 years ago and take into consideration the things he learned over the years. Obviously he is not the same coach that he was when he was at Ole Miss.
Posted on 11/3/16 at 12:59 pm to Tiger Tracker
quote:
Tell me 1) how many interim coaches are promoted to perm hc and 2) how many of those promoted actually went on to run a successful program
for the 65 P5 conference schools in the past 30 years, excluding coaches who took over for a bowl game like Bill Stewart, i can only find 2 interims who have gotten the HC job.
most likely thats because, out of the 18 coaches listed here, only 4 had a winning record. Dabo Swiney went 4-3, Clay Helton went 5-4, Brian Cabral went 2-1, Ed Orgeron went 6-2, and Ed Orgeron went 3-0.
Dabo and Helton are the 2 who have gotten the full time HC job. Dabo has Clemson at number 2 right now, Helton has USC unranked but theyve won 4 in a row and will likely finish high in the top 20.
most of these are just bad teams of course, thats why the HC was fired, but 2015 USC was pre-season number 8. Helton finished out 5-4 and USC was not in the final rankings.
2009 Clemson was pre-season number 9. Dabo finished 4-3 and Clemson was number 24 in the final rankings.
2013 USC was pre-season number 24. Orgeron finished 6-2 and USC was number 19 in the final rankings.
this is the only example I can find of a teams ranking actually improving under the interim.
if there's any I missed, just let me know
Ed Orgeron - LSU - 2016
Les Miles was fired after going 2-2; Orgeron has gone 3-0
Gerad Parker - Purdue - 2016
Darrell Hazell was fired after going 3-3; Parker has gone 0-2
Clay Helton - USC - 2015
Steve Sarkisian was fired after going 3-2; Helton went 5-4
Shawn Elliot - South Carolina - 2015
Steve Spurrier resigned after going 2-4; Elliot went 1-5
Mike Locksley - Maryland - 2015
Randy Edsall was fired after going 2-4; Locksley went 1-5
Bill Cubit - Illinois - 2015
Tim Beckman was fired before the season started, after going 6-7 the year before. Cubit went 5-7
Clint Bowen - Kansas - 2014
Charlie Weis was fired after going 2-2; Bowen went 1-7
Ed Orgeron - USC - 2013
Lane Kiffin was fired after going 3-2; Orgeron went 6-2
Tim Kish - Arizona - 2011
Mike Stoops was fired after going 1-5; Kish went 3-3
Tom Bradley - Penn State - 2011
Joe Paterno was fired after going 8-1; Bradley went 1-3
Brian Cabral - Colorado - 2010
Dan Hawkins was fired after going 3-6; Cabral went 2-1
Jeff Horton - Minnesota - 2010
Tim Brewster was fired after going 1-6; Horton went 2-3
Dabo Swinney - Clemson - 2008
Tommy Bowden was fired after going 3-3; Swinney went 4-3
Mike Hankwitz - Arizona - 2003
John Mackovic was fired after going 1-4; Hankwitz went 1-6
Morris Watts - Michigan State - 2002
Bobby Williams was fired after going 3-6; Watts went 1-2
Tom Hayes - Kansas - 2001
Terry Allen was fired after going 2-6; Hayes went 1-2
Bill Oliver - Auburn - 1998
Terry Bowden was fired after going 1-5; Oliver went 2-3
George O'Leary - Georgia Tech - 1994
Bill Lewis resigned after going 1-6; O'Leary went 0-3
Joe Kines - Arkansas - 1992
Jack Crowe was fired after going 0-1; Kines went 3-6-1
note: George O'Leary did go on to run good programs at GaTech and UCF, but did not the HC job in 1994
This post was edited on 11/3/16 at 1:00 pm
Posted on 11/3/16 at 1:07 pm to boxcar willie
quote:
the defense and special teams look better also.
I think they look better because of the offense. Since we aren't going run run and pass every set of downs it gives the defense and sp more rest.
quote:
Obviously he is not the same coach that he was when he was at Ole Miss.
I agree to an extent, but the point still remains he hasn't redeemed himself as a perm hc anywhere yet. Interim and perm are very different.
This post was edited on 11/3/16 at 1:09 pm
Posted on 11/3/16 at 1:21 pm to Tiger Tracker
quote:
It amazes me how blind some people are about what it means to be an interim HC vs a perm HC.
It actually means a lot more. Unless, the interim doesn't want the job. If he doesn't want the job, he won't give a shite. If he wants the job he is working his arse off to prove it. He is working to improve the current team, recruiting his arse off, coaching his arse off, selling himself like a mofo.
What is the difference in being an interim HC and a permanent HC to you? I can't wait for your answer. I will patiently wait for a response.
Posted on 11/3/16 at 1:22 pm to MastrShake
So we take that much of a gamble on O? We hope he is the next Dabo?
I mean if you take a look at the career path of carbal he is now AHC and DC at Indiana State. Meaning he is putting in his dues to gain enough resume exp. To warrant a HC opportunity somewhere in the future.
Helton was also an OC at Memphis and USC before arriving to the interim HC gig. He had some success at Memphis even but is still struggling a bit at USC, although he is improving.
Looking at O he is failed HC with two interim gigs. One they didn't hire him to be HC. The other he is still auditioning for. Is this the guy we risk everything on when there are better options available right now?
I mean if you take a look at the career path of carbal he is now AHC and DC at Indiana State. Meaning he is putting in his dues to gain enough resume exp. To warrant a HC opportunity somewhere in the future.
Helton was also an OC at Memphis and USC before arriving to the interim HC gig. He had some success at Memphis even but is still struggling a bit at USC, although he is improving.
Looking at O he is failed HC with two interim gigs. One they didn't hire him to be HC. The other he is still auditioning for. Is this the guy we risk everything on when there are better options available right now?
Posted on 11/3/16 at 1:26 pm to Tiger Tracker
quote:
Is this the guy we risk everything on
Possibly, he has four games to prove if he has what it takes.
quote:
when there are better options available right now?
If coach O wins out beating 3 top 10 teams and Arkansas in addition to the 3 games he has already dominated. Who would be a better option?
Posted on 11/3/16 at 1:29 pm to Tiger Ree
quote:
What is the difference in being an interim HC and a permanent HC to you?
It means can you sustain success over the long term. Can coach O? Maybe, but his resume says there's, at best, a 50/50 shot he does.
It also means that you have all your perm staff in place, your specific offense/defense is in place, and the players playing for you were recruited while you were HC.
I give O a pass on the last one because he was one of the top recruiters for LSU. They may not be all his, but he can recruit no denying that.
Posted on 11/3/16 at 1:31 pm to Tiger Ree
quote:
If coach O wins out beating 3 top 10 teams and Arkansas in addition to the 3 games he has already dominated. Who would be a better option?
Im talking about right now. I have already stated my opinion could change over time. Some people are ready to crown and defend all his shortcomings right now. Which is ludicrous.
Posted on 11/3/16 at 1:33 pm to Tiger Ree
quote:
If coach O wins out beating 3 top 10 teams and Arkansas in addition to the 3 games he has already dominated. Who would be a better option?
Herman or Fisher
Posted on 11/3/16 at 1:36 pm to Tiger Tracker
quote:
people are ready to crown and defend all his shortcomings right now. Which is ludicrous.
This is where I believe you are mistaken. Yes they are happy with how the team has performed since he took over. Even when people say they think he should be hired, they realize it should and will be based on what he does the next four games.
Posted on 11/3/16 at 1:52 pm to Tiger Ree
quote:
This is where I believe you are mistaken.
I sure hope that is the case. I don't get that feeling from people though. When people are willingly ignoring or forgiving him for his ole miss past based on 6-2 at USC and 3-0 at LSU it causes serious pause. He may run the table. If he does I'd be willing to put him in serious contention for the job and wouldn't be so hard on people wanting to hire him.
I couldn't make that assessment until he has won those games though. Whats more important is how we looked beating them. Alabama is the only team i am convinced looks like they should be ranked where they are. I think bama will shape my view of O for the long haul.
This post was edited on 11/3/16 at 1:54 pm
Posted on 11/3/16 at 1:57 pm to Tiger Tracker
quote:
It means can you sustain success over the long term. Can coach O? Maybe, but his resume says there's, at best, a 50/50 shot he does.
So they hired him as interim coach and said this is your staff do what you want to do. He immediately fires one guy, promotes another guy, hires this guy and hires this guy.
In the aftermath, his team wins three games while setting 3 all-time school records, outscores opponents 73-7 in the second half of his games and looks good in all 3 phases. To you he only has a 50/50 shot to maintain success?
quote:
It also means that you have all your perm staff in place, your specific offense/defense is in place, and the players playing for you were recruited while you were HC.
So making changes to the staff that allows for three blow-out wins after you make the decisions and make the changes that lead to the wins doesn't count?
quote:
It also means that you have all your perm staff in place, your specific offense/defense is in place, and the players playing for you were recruited while you were HC.
That is the only reason the best defensive tackle in the country is coming to visit LSU this weekend. On top of that, he is bringing his buddy, a 5-star offensive lineman with him.
Posted on 11/3/16 at 1:58 pm to cas4t
quote:
Herman
Can't even beat SMU, STFU.
Posted on 11/3/16 at 2:09 pm to Tiger Ree
quote:
To you he only has a 50/50 shot to maintain success?
Yeah because at ole miss he couldn't do it. I have to consider that. He has made good decisions so far.
quote:
In the aftermath, his team wins three games while setting 3 all-time school records, outscores opponents 73-7 in the second half of his games and looks good in all 3 phases.
He did what miles didn't do. Take his thumb out of the offense and get rid of cam. Both good moves, but let's not act like he took a terrible team of players and beat great teams to set these records.
quote:
So making changes to the staff that allows for three blow-out wins after you make the decisions and make the changes that lead to the wins doesn't count?
No because again, as O himself said, we can't change the offense only tweak it. Again, I'm counting the wins, but weighting it against his past experiences.
quote:
quote:
It also means that you have all your perm staff in place, your specific offense/defense is in place, and the players playing for you were recruited while you were HC.
That is the only reason the best defensive tackle in the country is coming to visit LSU this weekend. On top of that, he is bringing his buddy, a 5-star offensive lineman with him.
Im not sure how what you quoted is related to a DL and OL coming to visit. Has he commited? Did he say the only way he comes to lsu is if O is HC?
This post was edited on 11/3/16 at 2:12 pm
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