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Message
re: Stormlight Archives - Spoilers and Discussion thread (and other Cosmere spoilers)
Posted on 1/18/25 at 10:08 am to Breesus
Posted on 1/18/25 at 10:08 am to Breesus
Kaladin vs Nale. Hell yes. How much agony is Sanderson going to put us through before we get to see this play out. I assume at the end Kaladin will somehow spare Nale and manage to remind him of who he is. Or maybe he sends him to damnation. To the death afterall isn’t technically the end of a Herald.
Odiums penchant for nicknames is funny, calling tanavast Tanner and Queen Fen FenFen as a pet name.
Sanderson is great at tieing things together. All of Kaladin annoying nonsense leads to a very satisfying conclusion when he helps Nale remember who he was when he became a Herald and he ties it all back to Witt’s story of the Wandersail, which I absolutely love. Well done. When I go back and read my ramblings after finally finishing this book I assume I’ll laugh at myself a lot.
Shallan’s final confrontation and comfort with her mother was another storyline well done. Sanderson is earning my excitement as I get to these last couple hundred pages.
It’s rough watching these characters fail because they are too stupid to shut up and think for a minute. It’s been that theme the entire book. Dalinar, Shallan, Kaladin, and now Jasnah. All she had to do was shut up for a minute and think of someone other than herself. I hope she gets redeemed, because she got crushed in that exchange with Fen and Odium.
Szeth’s realization and rebellion followed by his father’s betrayal. And the declaration of Truthless. Oof. The parallel viewing of his journey to cleanse Shinivar overlaid with his past decisions and final judgement. Wow. What a well written and beautiful journey he slowly unfolded through this character over 5 long books.
I audibly cheered when The Lopan rocked Moash and saved Sigzil.
Random thought: Just realized something about Maya. Is Kelek still in Lasting Integrity? Is she bringing him as help? She keeps promising help is coming but it can’t just be a bunch of spren because they can’t repel the attacks. Or is it a bunch of deadeyes and suddenly there will be sharblades everywhere with the Lightweaver Herald’s help?
Renarin and Rlain again ignore the problems at hand and spend some time making out.
Honor sure does alot of not honorable bullshite. Killing Adonalsium, betraying Mishram, betraying the singers, betraying humanity, abandoning the Heralds, trapping a planet in a brutal cycle of death and its hero’s in a cycle of torture until they break.
Adolin gets crushed. Again. Storms. (Has anyone else cursed by saying “storms” in real life while reading these books?).
The end of Day 9.
One day to go:
Dalinar is still lost in the spirit realm trying to ascend to Honor so he can stop Odium.
Szeth still has to confront Ishar and his dad with Kaladin.
Adolin is bloodied and broken and Azir has fallen.
Jasnah lost and Thaylenah is fallen
Sigzil has some sort of secret plan involving Venli but for now the Shattered Planes have fallen.
Lift, Witt, Navani, and Gavinor are in the tower. I believe Vasher is as well.
Shallan, Rlain, Rennarin, Mraize, and Iyatil are all still in the spirit realm sometimes hunting for Mishram’s prison but more often than that just kind of fricking around aimlessly with no sense of urgency or a care in the world.
Day 10:
Ishar has embraced Odium. The oath pact was originally created from Honor’s twisting of their bonds with Odium. Interesting.
Witt I keep wondering if he will be revealed as something greater or something bizarre. He’s been an awesome character. I wonder if Sanderson has one last secret about him to throw out there.
I can’t handle another Adolin defeat. He has a side sword and a peg leg against Abidi with his back against the wall. Storming Azir and their aluminum chamber.
Again I find myself cheering against Kaladin lol. Ishar telling him to shut up was great.
“Oh, songs” Abidi swore. Pure awesomeness. And then Adolin and Maya reforge the deadeyes into a badass fighting force. Adolin ends up as the only person on Roshar to successfully defend a throne.
Szeth dismissing his spren was well done, followed by Ishar’s torture of Kaladin and the honor bearers. Can’t wait to see how this ends and I hope Nightblood is involved. Vasher is still on world somewhere.
I could not care less about Shallan’s conflict with Mraize and I’m bored with Rlain and Renarin and Mishram.
Dalinar fighting little Gavinor is a brilliant play by Taravangian. Though I can’t remember the exact terms of the contract. Was it supposed to be a fight to the death or just a “contest of champions”? Is there a loophole there?
“I’m just an old spear who wouldn’t break.” Sanderson always makes her Kaladin comes through strong in the end.
Odiums penchant for nicknames is funny, calling tanavast Tanner and Queen Fen FenFen as a pet name.
Sanderson is great at tieing things together. All of Kaladin annoying nonsense leads to a very satisfying conclusion when he helps Nale remember who he was when he became a Herald and he ties it all back to Witt’s story of the Wandersail, which I absolutely love. Well done. When I go back and read my ramblings after finally finishing this book I assume I’ll laugh at myself a lot.
Shallan’s final confrontation and comfort with her mother was another storyline well done. Sanderson is earning my excitement as I get to these last couple hundred pages.
It’s rough watching these characters fail because they are too stupid to shut up and think for a minute. It’s been that theme the entire book. Dalinar, Shallan, Kaladin, and now Jasnah. All she had to do was shut up for a minute and think of someone other than herself. I hope she gets redeemed, because she got crushed in that exchange with Fen and Odium.
Szeth’s realization and rebellion followed by his father’s betrayal. And the declaration of Truthless. Oof. The parallel viewing of his journey to cleanse Shinivar overlaid with his past decisions and final judgement. Wow. What a well written and beautiful journey he slowly unfolded through this character over 5 long books.
I audibly cheered when The Lopan rocked Moash and saved Sigzil.
Random thought: Just realized something about Maya. Is Kelek still in Lasting Integrity? Is she bringing him as help? She keeps promising help is coming but it can’t just be a bunch of spren because they can’t repel the attacks. Or is it a bunch of deadeyes and suddenly there will be sharblades everywhere with the Lightweaver Herald’s help?
Renarin and Rlain again ignore the problems at hand and spend some time making out.
Honor sure does alot of not honorable bullshite. Killing Adonalsium, betraying Mishram, betraying the singers, betraying humanity, abandoning the Heralds, trapping a planet in a brutal cycle of death and its hero’s in a cycle of torture until they break.
Adolin gets crushed. Again. Storms. (Has anyone else cursed by saying “storms” in real life while reading these books?).
The end of Day 9.
One day to go:
Dalinar is still lost in the spirit realm trying to ascend to Honor so he can stop Odium.
Szeth still has to confront Ishar and his dad with Kaladin.
Adolin is bloodied and broken and Azir has fallen.
Jasnah lost and Thaylenah is fallen
Sigzil has some sort of secret plan involving Venli but for now the Shattered Planes have fallen.
Lift, Witt, Navani, and Gavinor are in the tower. I believe Vasher is as well.
Shallan, Rlain, Rennarin, Mraize, and Iyatil are all still in the spirit realm sometimes hunting for Mishram’s prison but more often than that just kind of fricking around aimlessly with no sense of urgency or a care in the world.
Day 10:
Ishar has embraced Odium. The oath pact was originally created from Honor’s twisting of their bonds with Odium. Interesting.
Witt I keep wondering if he will be revealed as something greater or something bizarre. He’s been an awesome character. I wonder if Sanderson has one last secret about him to throw out there.
I can’t handle another Adolin defeat. He has a side sword and a peg leg against Abidi with his back against the wall. Storming Azir and their aluminum chamber.
Again I find myself cheering against Kaladin lol. Ishar telling him to shut up was great.
“Oh, songs” Abidi swore. Pure awesomeness. And then Adolin and Maya reforge the deadeyes into a badass fighting force. Adolin ends up as the only person on Roshar to successfully defend a throne.
Szeth dismissing his spren was well done, followed by Ishar’s torture of Kaladin and the honor bearers. Can’t wait to see how this ends and I hope Nightblood is involved. Vasher is still on world somewhere.
I could not care less about Shallan’s conflict with Mraize and I’m bored with Rlain and Renarin and Mishram.
Dalinar fighting little Gavinor is a brilliant play by Taravangian. Though I can’t remember the exact terms of the contract. Was it supposed to be a fight to the death or just a “contest of champions”? Is there a loophole there?
“I’m just an old spear who wouldn’t break.” Sanderson always makes her Kaladin comes through strong in the end.
This post was edited on 1/21/25 at 7:50 pm
1
Posted on 1/18/25 at 5:17 pm to iwyLSUiwy
quote:
Maybe yall can help me with a few things because I don’t really want to go past this chapter without a little clarification. There were numerous things I didn’t get but I’ll just mention the main thing(s)…
1. Honor creates the Oathpact/10 Heralds so they can try and defeat the Voidbringers who turns out just reincarnate to Parshmen. Ok got that. But it’s Desolations role and the whole Damnation part I’m not getting. I guess I misinterpreted what desolation actually is because i don’t know what is actually coming every certain amount of years (coming more frequently as well).
2. The Heralds would return to Damnation willingly to be tortured because that would hold back Desolation? Then I guess 9 of them were pretty much breaking under pressure often so they left it up to the Herald to never break hoping he would just endure torture forever. But he eventually breaks and now they have a new Desolation?
3. Recreance. This might just be my memory struggling but I don’t remember this being mentioned.
I'll try to answer without spoiling anything (based on where it seems you are).
1. Honor created the Heralds, the Heralds created the Oathpact with Honor. Going beyond this answer might spoil things for you. Once you've finished RoW, ask this again if you need to.
Desolations are eras of war, think of them kind of like World Wars (except there are far more Desolations and they destroyed far more... think of somewhere between Hiroshima and Berlin at the end of WW2 level of destruction). They end with the Voidbringers being sent back to Damnation for a time. The problem is that these wars were so horrible that they kept pushing societies and technology back to around hunter-gatherer levels. Each time, the Heralds would help to try to shepherd people back to some level of technology before the next Desolation.
2. Yes, that's essentially it in a nutshell. Because of this, it's been something like two thousand years since the last Desolation.
3. The Recreance was the day the Knights Radiant abandoned their shardblades and plate outside the keep (if you're at the part where Navani and Jasnah have joined Dalinar in a vision, you've already read on this event).
This post was edited on 1/18/25 at 5:24 pm
Posted on 1/20/25 at 1:04 pm to Bard
I read The Way of Kings last summer. Really enjoyed it, and thankfully found the family trees on Reddit to keep the family straight.
Posted on 1/20/25 at 3:26 pm to Bard
Thanks. quote:
Desolations are eras of war, think of them kind of like World Wars (except there are far more Desolations and they destroyed far more... think of somewhere between Hiroshima and Berlin at the end of WW2 level of destruction). They end with the Voidbringers being sent back to Damnation for a time. The problem is that these wars were so horrible that they kept pushing societies and technology back to around hunter-gatherer levels. Each time, the Heralds would help to try to shepherd people back to some level of technology before the next Desolation.
Got ya, Simple enough. I was overthinking it a little I guess because I was almost trying to tie it back into Mistborn with Ruin and thinking Ruin and Desolation were similar or possibly the same. Almost like Desolation was a person/vessel returning not just an event.
On a side note, I really need Wit to show up soon. 500 pages and no Wit hurts my feelings.
Posted on 1/22/25 at 10:47 pm to Breesus
I am not sure how I feel about the end of that book. Here are my unfiltered thoughts upon finishing it:
I didn’t love it that’s for sure. It felt like a major disappointing case of blue balls. It also felt like a confusing insult to the reader and kind of a slap in the face. I guess I was under the impression that this book was the end of something. But it wasn’t.
15 years, 5 books, and thousands of pages about oaths and Stormlight and redemption and strength and honor and magic and Spren and heroes only to end the entire story with the breaking of oaths, a complete lack of redemption, weakness, anything but honor, and the final thought that none of it mattered at all, the bad guys won everything they wanted and then some and all of our heroes are either dead or maimed and impotent. Adolin is the closest thing to a true hero but he’s left alone and without any satisfying conclusion.
Renarin abandoned Shallan because he’s a selfish stupid jackass and so she’s trapped in Shadesmare. He also refused the throne, released a demon, and failed to help his father but hey he’s got Rlain’s strength to lean on or whatever.
Vasher never showed up.
Anti-Stormlight or voidlight ended up not really mattering at all.
The stormfather himself ended up being a lieing pathetic sniveling little shite.
Honor himself ended up being a dishonorable weak pathetic excuse for a diety.
Lift all but disappeared.
Moash is still alive.
Witt it turns out is just selfish cowardly a-hole that just so happens to be immortal. He might be the most destructive force in the cosmere.
Jasnah is a failed pitiful excuse for a scholar.
Kaladin gets to live in paradise for a few hundred years or whatever with 9 people he’s never met as a reward for doing nothing to help the most critical battle most of his friends died in.
BoAdoMishram is free but that doesn’t matter and no one knows who or where she is anyway.
Dalinar is dead. But his evil spirit “The Blackthorn” is a living spren that serves “Retribution” rendering Dalinar’s entire redemption arc completely pointless.
Bridge 4 other than Sigzil is basically forgotten with no conclusion.
Szeth only has one arm and is now expected to lead and train an entire nation by himself without guidance.
Shallan ended up being completely worthless. She failed to kill Mraize so many times that she ended up so distracted she never helped anything and stood by powerless as Rlain and Renarin released Mishram.
Venli and her people are once again slaves to a god who doesn’t care about them.
Adolin was the only hero and good guy in the book. Maybe even the entire series. And his story line ends in such a depressing down note. He was denied his final conversation with his father, left hobbled without a leg or ability to heal, and is now just some new randomly created thing not bound at all by any of the magic system established in this universe. He’s also alone because his brother simply forgot to save his wife. Still the best character in the books along with Taravangian as far as I’m concerned and got shafted the hardest by the ending.
I guess moving forward I’ll root for Taravangian, The Blackthorn, and Moash to just kill everyone and everything in this universe. Taravangian got everything he wanted. He even saved his family and friends and picked up an extra shard Taravangian was the hero of the entire story. Good for him. He is without a doubt the best character in the entire Stormlight Archive.
Journey before Destination indeed. The journey through Roshar was absolutely fantastic. The destination was decrepit dog shite. If I re-read these books I will do so with Adolin, Moash, and Taravangian as the center characters.
When Kaladin and the other Heralds show up for their “final return” I hope Moash kills them. And then I hope Adolin steps up and kills him. For all his talk about protecting people, the best thing Kaladin ever could have done is kill Moash and he failed to do it multiple times. As far as I’m concerned Kaladin is responsible for all of Moash’s actions since and including Elhokar’s death.
To say I’m disappointed is an understatement. Probably my own fault as I went in expecting a conclusion to the massive world full of characters we have grown to know over the last 15 years and instead got a “none of them even mattered at all. To be continued in another 5 books.” There are much better ways to end an arc and set up a sequel than to basically say the entire first arc was pointless and so were the characters and the stories.
It was as I feared since Oathbringer. Sanderson is a master at crafting a universe and magic system and action sequences and characters, but bit off more than he could chew and instead of doing the smart thing and focusing on his strengths and scaling back his weaknesses he fell prey to his own ego and whatever outside forces he very obviously teamed up with since Covid.
I’ll probably read way of Kings and words of radiance again but I’m done with Roshar and its story. This book definitely didn’t earn my attention for 5 more books that won’t start being published for another decade. At least Mistborn Era 2 was well done and complete. I’ll re-read Wayne’s story a hundred times before I come back to this.
Why end a 15 year 5 book story arc about redemption, honor, and finding joy and meaning in life despite how brutal reality can be on an unbelievably depressing meaningless note? Oh well: too much time and effort spent on this. Lesson learned.
I didn’t love it that’s for sure. It felt like a major disappointing case of blue balls. It also felt like a confusing insult to the reader and kind of a slap in the face. I guess I was under the impression that this book was the end of something. But it wasn’t.
15 years, 5 books, and thousands of pages about oaths and Stormlight and redemption and strength and honor and magic and Spren and heroes only to end the entire story with the breaking of oaths, a complete lack of redemption, weakness, anything but honor, and the final thought that none of it mattered at all, the bad guys won everything they wanted and then some and all of our heroes are either dead or maimed and impotent. Adolin is the closest thing to a true hero but he’s left alone and without any satisfying conclusion.
Renarin abandoned Shallan because he’s a selfish stupid jackass and so she’s trapped in Shadesmare. He also refused the throne, released a demon, and failed to help his father but hey he’s got Rlain’s strength to lean on or whatever.
Vasher never showed up.
Anti-Stormlight or voidlight ended up not really mattering at all.
The stormfather himself ended up being a lieing pathetic sniveling little shite.
Honor himself ended up being a dishonorable weak pathetic excuse for a diety.
Lift all but disappeared.
Moash is still alive.
Witt it turns out is just selfish cowardly a-hole that just so happens to be immortal. He might be the most destructive force in the cosmere.
Jasnah is a failed pitiful excuse for a scholar.
Kaladin gets to live in paradise for a few hundred years or whatever with 9 people he’s never met as a reward for doing nothing to help the most critical battle most of his friends died in.
BoAdoMishram is free but that doesn’t matter and no one knows who or where she is anyway.
Dalinar is dead. But his evil spirit “The Blackthorn” is a living spren that serves “Retribution” rendering Dalinar’s entire redemption arc completely pointless.
Bridge 4 other than Sigzil is basically forgotten with no conclusion.
Szeth only has one arm and is now expected to lead and train an entire nation by himself without guidance.
Shallan ended up being completely worthless. She failed to kill Mraize so many times that she ended up so distracted she never helped anything and stood by powerless as Rlain and Renarin released Mishram.
Venli and her people are once again slaves to a god who doesn’t care about them.
Adolin was the only hero and good guy in the book. Maybe even the entire series. And his story line ends in such a depressing down note. He was denied his final conversation with his father, left hobbled without a leg or ability to heal, and is now just some new randomly created thing not bound at all by any of the magic system established in this universe. He’s also alone because his brother simply forgot to save his wife. Still the best character in the books along with Taravangian as far as I’m concerned and got shafted the hardest by the ending.
I guess moving forward I’ll root for Taravangian, The Blackthorn, and Moash to just kill everyone and everything in this universe. Taravangian got everything he wanted. He even saved his family and friends and picked up an extra shard Taravangian was the hero of the entire story. Good for him. He is without a doubt the best character in the entire Stormlight Archive.
Journey before Destination indeed. The journey through Roshar was absolutely fantastic. The destination was decrepit dog shite. If I re-read these books I will do so with Adolin, Moash, and Taravangian as the center characters.
When Kaladin and the other Heralds show up for their “final return” I hope Moash kills them. And then I hope Adolin steps up and kills him. For all his talk about protecting people, the best thing Kaladin ever could have done is kill Moash and he failed to do it multiple times. As far as I’m concerned Kaladin is responsible for all of Moash’s actions since and including Elhokar’s death.
To say I’m disappointed is an understatement. Probably my own fault as I went in expecting a conclusion to the massive world full of characters we have grown to know over the last 15 years and instead got a “none of them even mattered at all. To be continued in another 5 books.” There are much better ways to end an arc and set up a sequel than to basically say the entire first arc was pointless and so were the characters and the stories.
It was as I feared since Oathbringer. Sanderson is a master at crafting a universe and magic system and action sequences and characters, but bit off more than he could chew and instead of doing the smart thing and focusing on his strengths and scaling back his weaknesses he fell prey to his own ego and whatever outside forces he very obviously teamed up with since Covid.
I’ll probably read way of Kings and words of radiance again but I’m done with Roshar and its story. This book definitely didn’t earn my attention for 5 more books that won’t start being published for another decade. At least Mistborn Era 2 was well done and complete. I’ll re-read Wayne’s story a hundred times before I come back to this.
Why end a 15 year 5 book story arc about redemption, honor, and finding joy and meaning in life despite how brutal reality can be on an unbelievably depressing meaningless note? Oh well: too much time and effort spent on this. Lesson learned.
This post was edited on 1/23/25 at 6:34 am
Posted on 1/23/25 at 7:30 am to Breesus
quote:
I guess moving forward I’ll root for Taravangian, The Blackthorn, and Moash to just kill everyone and everything in this universe. Taravangian got everything he wanted. He even saved his family and friends and picked up an extra shard Taravangian was the hero of the entire story. Good for him. He is without a doubt the best character in the entire Stormlight Archive.
Journey before Destination indeed. The journey through Roshar was absolutely fantastic. The destination was decrepit dog shite. If I re-read these books I will do so with Adolin, Moash, and Taravangian as the center characters.
When Kaladin and the other Heralds show up for their “final return” I hope Moash kills them. And then I hope Adolin steps up and kills him. For all his talk about protecting people, the best thing Kaladin ever could have done is kill Moash and he failed to do it multiple times. As far as I’m concerned Kaladin is responsible for all of Moash’s actions since and including Elhokar’s death.
To say I’m disappointed is an understatement. Probably my own fault as I went in expecting a conclusion to the massive world full of characters we have grown to know over the last 15 years and instead got a “none of them even mattered at all. To be continued in another 5 books.” There are much better ways to end an arc and set up a sequel than to basically say the entire first arc was pointless and so were the characters and the stories.
It was as I feared since Oathbringer. Sanderson is a master at crafting a universe and magic system and action sequences and characters, but bit off more than he could chew and instead of doing the smart thing and focusing on his strengths and scaling back his weaknesses he fell prey to his own ego and whatever outside forces he very obviously teamed up with since Covid.
I’ll probably read way of Kings and words of radiance again but I’m done with Roshar and its story. This book definitely didn’t earn my attention for 5 more books that won’t start being published for another decade. At least Mistborn Era 2 was well done and complete. I’ll re-read Wayne’s story a hundred times before I come back to this.
Why end a 15 year 5 book story arc about redemption, honor, and finding joy and meaning in life despite how brutal reality can be on an unbelievably depressing meaningless note? Oh well: too much time and effort spent on this. Lesson learned.
This all seems a bit harsh.
I think you may need some time to process that ending and possibly a re-read.
Posted on 1/23/25 at 8:10 am to Green Chili Tiger
I don’t need a re-read. He rug pulled all the main characters and ended the book with “in the end, None of these people were important at all. The spren and the planet are safe and that’s all that matters.” The story ends how it ends. The destination in this case is important regardless of the journey. Dalinar’s arc is invalided. Adolin is miserable and alone. Taravangian won and saved his friends and family. Moash is still alive and kickin. Kaladin abandoned bridge 4 and all the radiants and they died and fell apart without him. The Heralds never atoned for their sins or apologized or learned anything. The Stormfather was revealed to be a worthless pathetic weasel and then died. The singers are right back to a confined space at war with humans slaves to a god that doesn’t care about them. Witt continued on his world hopping journey leaving death and destruction in his wake. Jasnah proved to be quite worthless and pathetic despite all her years of posturing and study. Renarin proved he exactly what everyone thought he was: an awkward weirdo that should never have been near an important decision. Shallan finally accepted herself only to end up stranded and alone working for Kelsier. Etc…
We found out halfway through this book that the planet itself was a creation of Adolanalsium and Honor, Odium, and Cultivation were fighting over it for their own purposes. The people never mattered. Their stories never mattered. The entire 4 previous books didn’t matter. That’s how the author chose to present the material.
I know some people will be satisfied with that ending. I’m not. It is what it is.
We found out halfway through this book that the planet itself was a creation of Adolanalsium and Honor, Odium, and Cultivation were fighting over it for their own purposes. The people never mattered. Their stories never mattered. The entire 4 previous books didn’t matter. That’s how the author chose to present the material.
I know some people will be satisfied with that ending. I’m not. It is what it is.
This post was edited on 1/23/25 at 8:13 am
Posted on 1/23/25 at 8:26 am to Breesus
quote:
Dalinar’s arc is invalided.
It's not
quote:
Adolin is miserable and alone
He's not
quote:
Taravangian won
He "won" a battle, not the war.
quote:
Kaladin abandoned bridge 4 and all the radiants and they died and fell apart without him.
He didn't and they didn't.
quote:
The Heralds never atoned for their sins or apologized or learned anything.
They did
Posted on 1/23/25 at 9:04 am to Green Chili Tiger
quote:
It's not
You’re right. He’s dead so he doesn’t have to live with the consequences of his actions or see the living embodiment of all his worst qualities wreak havoc on the cosmos.
quote:Taravangian won every single battle and ended stronger, smarter, and more powerful than he started. He won the war on Roshar and is positioned to win the war in the Cosmos as well.
He "won" a battle, not the war.
quote:
He's not
He definitely is. Are you married?
quote:
He didn't and they didn't.
He definitely abandoned them. Multiple times. They could’ve held the shattered plains with him. Instead more of them died and Moash is still alive and Sigzil abandoned his oaths and spren.
quote:
They did
What lesson? What redemption? Taln never broke. And is still a badass. The rest of them are still broken flawed angry immortals. What lessons did they learn? What did they do to redeem themselves? What was the point of their story at all?
This post was edited on 1/23/25 at 9:06 am
Posted on 1/23/25 at 9:50 am to Breesus
quote:
You’re right. He’s dead so he doesn’t have to live with the consequences of his actions or see the living embodiment of all his worst qualities wreak havoc on the cosmos.
He handicapped Odium in the strongest possible way available to him without destroying Roshar completely. He also left if merged with another shard that restricts him even further and completely wrecked his timeline for moving against the rest of the Cosmere.
quote:
Taravangian won every single battle and ended stronger, smarter, and more powerful than he started. He won the war on Roshar and is positioned to win the war in the Cosmos as well.
He didn't win every single battle though. He lost Azimir, the shattered plains, and Urithiru. The spren are protected from his touch and there is a new oathpact in place. He is no way positioned to win the war in the Cosmere. He's on his heels and scrambling to make himself ready to even begin the war for the Cosmere.
quote:
He definitely is. Are you married?
He misses and worries for his wife, but he is hardly miserable or alone. He just founded a new order(an order that is not reliant on stormlight), is surrounded by people that revere and value him, and is faced with something he's trained his whole life for. A fight.
quote:
He definitely abandoned them. Multiple times.
He didn't abandon them. He gave them room to grow beyond him.
quote:
They could’ve held the shattered plains with him.
They held the shattered plains without him. Venli and the Listeners hold the shattered plains. Not Retribution.
quote:
Instead more of them died
People die in war. He can't protect them all. That's the entire point of the 4th Ideal of the Windrunners.
quote:
Moash is still alive
Kaladin was probably the least likely of any of them to actually kill Moash.
quote:
Sigzil abandoned his oaths and spren.
Which was a genius move by Sigzil to save the life of his Spren.
quote:
What lesson? What redemption? Taln never broke. And is still a badass. The rest of them are still broken flawed angry immortals. What lessons did they learn?
That they are broken and flawed but they can work towards fixing that if they are open to it.
quote:
What did they do to redeem themselves?
They reforged the Oathpact and learned the most important step a man can take is the next one. It's not about whether or not you fail, it's what you do next that matters.
quote:
What was the point of their story at all?
Their story isn't over.
This post was edited on 1/23/25 at 10:07 am
Posted on 1/23/25 at 10:31 am to Green Chili Tiger
We can agree to disagree. I was disappointed in the direction which Sanderson took every character other than Adolin, Sigzil, and Taravangian, and I didn’t like his ending at all. I’m also not excited about having to wait another 10-15 years for the finale, we’ll see how it goes.
Moving forward in the cosmere:
Roshar: I will be rooting for Taravangian, who is the most well written villain I can remember and still has an outside chance to turn anti-hero. And Adolin who is the true hero and redemption of Roshar.
Scadrial: Marsh is my favorite character other than Wayne (Storming Wayne), and I’m excited to see if he returns somewhere. Maybe he’ll kill Moash.
Vasher: I hope there’s more to him. He did promise to train Lift.
The possibility of a radiant vs allomancer battle is still a fun thing to look forward to.
Moving forward in the cosmere:
Roshar: I will be rooting for Taravangian, who is the most well written villain I can remember and still has an outside chance to turn anti-hero. And Adolin who is the true hero and redemption of Roshar.
Scadrial: Marsh is my favorite character other than Wayne (Storming Wayne), and I’m excited to see if he returns somewhere. Maybe he’ll kill Moash.
Vasher: I hope there’s more to him. He did promise to train Lift.
The possibility of a radiant vs allomancer battle is still a fun thing to look forward to.
Posted on 1/23/25 at 11:08 am to Breesus
quote:
We can agree to disagree. I was disappointed in the direction which Sanderson took every character other than Adolin, Sigzil, and Taravangian, and I didn’t like his ending at all. I’m also not excited about having to wait another 10-15 years for the finale, we’ll see how it goes.
I completely get that. We definitely didn't get the clean and clear ending to Era 1 of Stormlight that I was expecting and I'm disappointed by that as well.
quote:
Scadrial: Marsh is my favorite character other than Wayne (Storming Wayne), and I’m excited to see if he returns somewhere. Maybe he’ll kill Moash.
I would love to see Ironeyes and Vyre go toe-to-toe!
quote:
Vasher: I hope there’s more to him. He did promise to train Lift.
Vasher and Lift both have Investiture that doesn't rely on Stormlight, so I expect them to be incredibly important moving forward.
Posted on 1/23/25 at 2:15 pm to Green Chili Tiger
I was most upset we didn’t get allomancer vs radiants this book but it’s obviously coming. Agreed Adolin was by far and away the hero of this book. I loved it the only part that felt forced was the renarin/rlain stuff. I didn’t care they’re gay and I liked that Drehy brought it up to Renarin! That’s good friend stuff! Everything else felt beyond forced as others have said. I’m on reread I’m sure there is a lot of fat that should have been trimmed.
Posted on 1/23/25 at 4:35 pm to Breesus
I'm guessing that you're more of a details person as opposed to a big-picture person. I don't say that as a pejorative in any way, just as an observation that it seems you've focused so much on specific things happening that weren't what you wanted, so you missed the bigger story.
This isn't "the entire story" nor the destination, this book marks the halfway point for the Journey of this series and this series seems to be part of a much larger series which encompasses other series (a "mega series", if you will).
In a normal story of this sort, the hero has to go through trials and tribulations in order to have something to achieve against. Ideally, the greater the trials the more meaningful the eventual triumph and that tale of the entire journey, how the hero gets from the beginning to the end, is what the reader is invested in. Again, keep in mind that this is only the halfway point for the story of the characters from Roshar.
One aspect of this is that the author has to establish who the hero (or team of heroes) actually is. George RR Martin wrote a master's class series on doing this in an indirect way with A Song of Ice and Fire (even though he hasn't, and may never, finish the fricking series
) as he blew through fleshed-out, seemingly main characters before finally revealing the true hero. This isn't to suggest that one of the non-primary characters is going to be the eventual hero of Archives, but rather to show how the path of the hero isn't always going to be as linear as we expect.
-Renarin abandoned Shallan because he was distracted by his budding relationship with Rlain. Every book of the series thus far has quietly underscored that Renarin has always had trouble socializing, so much so that he's led a pretty lonely life (through self-isolation due to feeling shunned as well as being shunned by many due to his lack of social skills).
-He refused the throne because he understands his limitations (as documented multiple times).
-Ba-Ado-Mishram isn't a demon. We see with her and Sja-Anat that not all of the Unmade wish to serve Odium. Mishram eventually turned her back on Odium because when she realized his entire schtick was to create and engage in war. Mishram loved the Singers and while she considered the humans to be a relentless tide determined to dominate Roshar (and thus the Singers), she was willing to work with Honor to defeat Odium/Rayse. Part of her understanding humans also led her to believe humans and Singers could co-exist only through Singers ruling Roshar.
Honor had already made a deal with Odium, to keep him locked to Roshar in return for taking Mishram off the chessboard, so Honor was behind Mishram's imprisonment and saw it as Honor (and, humanity, by extension) betraying her.
Renarin and Rlain symbolically releasing her together, and their relationship, caused her to start second-guessing her stance (but that's not going to be an easy thing after thousands of years of imprisonment).
I could do without the homosexual relationship and don't find their being gay to be necessary to the story. Everyone's knee-jerk acceptance of their relationship thus far (and, maybe even "especially because of", the Singer/Human aspect) comes across as forced.
There was never a guarantee he would, this isn't Warbreaker 2: Roshar Boogaloo. He may have a role in the future (and likely will), but his presence in a story doesn't mandate he becomes central to it.
Not yet. Something as powerful to that world as anti-stormlight is like leaving a loaded gun on the floor of a kindergarten classroom. Someone's going to move to do something with it. Whether that has a good or bad outcome has yet to be told. Again, remember we are only halfway through the series.
Honor was limited by his own limited vision. As a piece of Honor, the Stormfather was also so limited. Dalinar helped show them both that they can change.
She and the Sibling are pretty much the only disciples (although I'm not sure that's the best word) of Cultivation. Her part of that part of the story was over, but I doubt seriously her full role is done (especially considering how this ended with Zahel/Vasher taking her on for training).
quote:
15 years, 5 books, and thousands of pages about oaths and Stormlight and redemption and strength and honor and magic and Spren and heroes only to end the entire story with the breaking of oaths, a complete lack of redemption, weakness, anything but honor, and the final thought that none of it mattered at all, the bad guys won everything they wanted and then some and all of our heroes are either dead or maimed and impotent. Adolin is the closest thing to a true hero but he’s left alone and without any satisfying conclusion.
quote:
Journey before Destination indeed. The journey through Roshar was absolutely fantastic. The destination was decrepit dog shite.
This isn't "the entire story" nor the destination, this book marks the halfway point for the Journey of this series and this series seems to be part of a much larger series which encompasses other series (a "mega series", if you will).
In a normal story of this sort, the hero has to go through trials and tribulations in order to have something to achieve against. Ideally, the greater the trials the more meaningful the eventual triumph and that tale of the entire journey, how the hero gets from the beginning to the end, is what the reader is invested in. Again, keep in mind that this is only the halfway point for the story of the characters from Roshar.
One aspect of this is that the author has to establish who the hero (or team of heroes) actually is. George RR Martin wrote a master's class series on doing this in an indirect way with A Song of Ice and Fire (even though he hasn't, and may never, finish the fricking series
) as he blew through fleshed-out, seemingly main characters before finally revealing the true hero. This isn't to suggest that one of the non-primary characters is going to be the eventual hero of Archives, but rather to show how the path of the hero isn't always going to be as linear as we expect. quote:
Renarin abandoned Shallan because he’s a selfish stupid jackass and so she’s trapped in Shadesmare. He also refused the throne, released a demon, and failed to help his father but hey he’s got Rlain’s strength to lean on or whatever.
-Renarin abandoned Shallan because he was distracted by his budding relationship with Rlain. Every book of the series thus far has quietly underscored that Renarin has always had trouble socializing, so much so that he's led a pretty lonely life (through self-isolation due to feeling shunned as well as being shunned by many due to his lack of social skills).
-He refused the throne because he understands his limitations (as documented multiple times).
quote:
BoAdoMishram is free but that doesn’t matter and no one knows who or where she is anyway.
-Ba-Ado-Mishram isn't a demon. We see with her and Sja-Anat that not all of the Unmade wish to serve Odium. Mishram eventually turned her back on Odium because when she realized his entire schtick was to create and engage in war. Mishram loved the Singers and while she considered the humans to be a relentless tide determined to dominate Roshar (and thus the Singers), she was willing to work with Honor to defeat Odium/Rayse. Part of her understanding humans also led her to believe humans and Singers could co-exist only through Singers ruling Roshar.
Honor had already made a deal with Odium, to keep him locked to Roshar in return for taking Mishram off the chessboard, so Honor was behind Mishram's imprisonment and saw it as Honor (and, humanity, by extension) betraying her.
Renarin and Rlain symbolically releasing her together, and their relationship, caused her to start second-guessing her stance (but that's not going to be an easy thing after thousands of years of imprisonment).
I could do without the homosexual relationship and don't find their being gay to be necessary to the story. Everyone's knee-jerk acceptance of their relationship thus far (and, maybe even "especially because of", the Singer/Human aspect) comes across as forced.
quote:
Vasher never showed up.
There was never a guarantee he would, this isn't Warbreaker 2: Roshar Boogaloo. He may have a role in the future (and likely will), but his presence in a story doesn't mandate he becomes central to it.
quote:
Anti-Stormlight or voidlight ended up not really mattering at all.
Not yet. Something as powerful to that world as anti-stormlight is like leaving a loaded gun on the floor of a kindergarten classroom. Someone's going to move to do something with it. Whether that has a good or bad outcome has yet to be told. Again, remember we are only halfway through the series.
quote:
The stormfather himself ended up being a lieing pathetic sniveling little shite.
Honor himself ended up being a dishonorable weak pathetic excuse for a diety.
Honor was limited by his own limited vision. As a piece of Honor, the Stormfather was also so limited. Dalinar helped show them both that they can change.
quote:
Lift all but disappeared.
She and the Sibling are pretty much the only disciples (although I'm not sure that's the best word) of Cultivation. Her part of that part of the story was over, but I doubt seriously her full role is done (especially considering how this ended with Zahel/Vasher taking her on for training).
This post was edited on 1/23/25 at 4:37 pm
Posted on 1/23/25 at 4:35 pm to Bard
quote:
Moash is still alive.
frick Moash (obligatory statement). That said, he has a far bigger role to play. More on where I think that's going in a bit...
quote:
Witt it turns out is just selfish cowardly a-hole that just so happens to be immortal. He might be the most destructive force in the cosmere.
He has never really portrayed himself as much more than that (at least when he's not playing a role).
quote:
Jasnah is a failed pitiful excuse for a scholar.
Jasnah is an excellent scholar, but her ego got ahead of her AND she was matching wits with a god (ie: someone who has access to the knowledge of all history, including her history, and at least some ability at predicting outcomes). She's now shaken to her core, meaning she likely has some sort of character rebuild coming.
quote:
Kaladin gets to live in paradise for a few hundred years or whatever with 9 people he’s never met as a reward for doing nothing to help the most critical battle most of his friends died in.
Kaladin was necessary to remove the madness from the remaining Heralds. He was also necessary to reforge the Oathpact (since the old one was pretty much defunct as the Everstorm created a bridge which allowed the Fused to return without having to go through Braize) and this new Oathpact shields spren from Retribution (the Honor/Odium combo platter).
Again, halfway point. This is a looooong game and this move was to move powerful pieces to the endgame to win the war rather than risk them on a single battle.
quote:
When Kaladin and the other Heralds show up for their “final return” I hope Moash kills them. And then I hope Adolin steps up and kills him. For all his talk about protecting people, the best thing Kaladin ever could have done is kill Moash and he failed to do it multiple times. As far as I’m concerned Kaladin is responsible for all of Moash’s actions since and including Elhokar’s death.
I think the battle between Kaladin and Moash will be one of the final battles for Roshar, or maybe the final one.
quote:
There are much better ways to end an arc and set up a sequel than to basically say the entire first arc was pointless and so were the characters and the stories.
Perhaps, but I can't think of any for this series. The next book is supposed to pick up around 15-20 years after the end of this book.
In another vein, you also have to remember that Roshar is now just a part of a far bigger story. The bigger story is Taravangian's work toward taking over the cosmere. Dalinar's sacrifice ended up fricking Taravangian's plan of having centuries to plan and build his armies. The other shards are not only aware that they can now no longer afford to ignore Odium-now-Retribution, but Cultivation is now out there trying to rally them all. Along with that, there's the issue of Dalinar's influence on Honor and his showing the power that it can change, right before it became absorbed into Retribution.
Posted on 1/23/25 at 4:46 pm to Breesus
quote:
I was disappointed in the direction which Sanderson took every character other than Adolin, Sigzil, and Taravangian, and I didn’t like his ending at all. I’m also not excited about having to wait another 10-15 years for the finale, we’ll see how it goes.
I get it. I'm looking at it in the context of a larger story, so I think that's why I am okay with the book ending with the world staged as it is. I hate that it will be so long before we get the next book (which should be a new era), and it will mean doing another re-read of the series, but I think what we saw at the end of this book was just the end of the first trial of the hero's journey and then staging for entry into the 2nd trial. If this is true, that's a HELLUVA journey so there should (ideally) be an equal payoff.
Posted on 1/23/25 at 5:00 pm to Bard
quote:
-He refused the throne because he understands his limitations (as documented multiple times).
This talk of refusing thrones reminded me of this meme I saw about Kaladin:
Posted on 1/23/25 at 5:24 pm to Bard
Also sucks for T-vang that Roshar is in a speed bubble like thing so the other planets can catch up. Assuming Mistborn era 3 will happen similar time as when stormlight 6 will pick back up.
Posted on 1/23/25 at 6:36 pm to spehog
quote:
Also sucks for T-vang that Roshar is in a speed bubble like thing so the other planets can catch up.
I had forgotten about that (there's so damned much to remember
). Posted on 1/23/25 at 7:20 pm to Bard
quote:
I'm guessing that you're more of a details person as opposed to a big-picture person. I don't say that as a pejorative in any way, just as an observation that it seems you've focused so much on specific things happening that weren't what you wanted, so you missed the bigger story.
Definitely a valid point. There was so much fluff and unnecessary nonsense in the last 5 books it ended up falling flat to me. And it wasn’t fluff and nonsense until Sanderson made it so in this book. You could’ve compressed the main characters and plot lines of these books into 3 superbly well done books instead of 5 books that drag in places and ultimately end with entire characters and plot lines being meaningless.
I understand this is supposed to be a 10 book master work, that’s fine. Book 5 did its job. He ended the small scale story of a single planet and opened it up to the cosmere. I do not care about the little people anymore on Roshar outside of Adolin and I hope Taravangian conquers the universe. Sanderson spent so much time in this book beating down his characters as a narrator and with dialogue eventually I just adopted that mood. That’s what weird to me about the whole book.
I end up annoyed with Kaladin because everyone in the story is annoyed with him. I end up hating Honor because everyone in the story hates him. I end up wishing Adolin would just die because he spends the whole book failing and wishing for death. You end up losing any sense of urgency in the sprit realm because not a single character in it seems to give a shite at all.
Sanderson spent 4 books talking about redemption and the amazing courage of the human spirit on Roshar and the need for a champion to set the world straight and how it’s a mistake for those in charge to overlook the little people and how important oaths and honor and strength and training is. And then he spent the 5th book shitting on all that, downplaying the reality of Roshar, and introducing entire new characters and plot lines that trump and overshadow everything in the previous books. It’s annoying.
But I understand that while I cared about the individual characters, he cared about the universe. I’m not mad, it’s just a book. These are just my opinions and they’re long because I just finished an 8 week reread of the first 4 books and then this massive 1400 page volume
. If I’m long winded it’s Sanderson’s fault. There are two unchanging extremely well written characters with continuous arcs and direct important tie ins to the entire story from the beginning of Book 1 to the end of book 5: Adolin and Taravangian. Taravangian may legitimately be my favorite character in the Cosmere if not my favorite fantasy character outside of LotR right now.
This post was edited on 1/23/25 at 7:25 pm
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