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Protection routinely inside electronics is equal or more robust than any plug-in protector. Long list of items, not on a protector, apparently were unharmed. Including dishwasher, clock radios, LED & CFL bulbs, central air, doorbell, recharging electronics, garage door opener, furnace, GFCIs, digital clocks, refrigerator, dimmer switches, stove, and smoke detectors. What protected all them?
Protectors adjacent to appliance do not claim effective protection. Protection (to even protect less robust plug-in protectors) must be at the service entrance. These superior products (from other companies known for integrity) cost about $1 per protected appliance. Come with numbers that even claim protection from direct lightning strikes.
A protector that failed did not do protection. To avert a house fire, its thermal fuse must disconnect protector parts as fast as possible. Leaving that destructive transient fully connected to nearby appliances.
Superior protection inside electronics protected electronics.
Some numbers. Long before PCs existed, international design standards required 120 volt electronics to withstand transients up to 600 volts without damage. Normal operation for many 120 volt powered electronics is constant voltages even at 265 volts. Nobody can say those protectors did anything useful without citing specification numbers.
So that plug-in protectors do not create a house fire (when failing), informed consumers earth a 'whole house' protector (at the service entrance). Lightning is typically 20,000 amps. So a minimal 'whole house' protector is 50,000 amps. Since protectors, that fail, do no protection. Effective protectors must even earth direct lightning strikes. Remain functional for many decades. With specification numbers that say so.
A thousands joules protector is often inferior to protection inside electronics. It can fail. Electronics survive. Then wild speculation credits that protector; not protection that is required to be inside all electronics.
Effective protection only exists when at the service entrance. Must have low impedance (ie less than 10 foot) connection to earth ground electrodes. A failing protector means protector parts disconnected as fast as possible - leaving a destructive voltage fully connected to appliances. Service entrance protectors are sized so as to not fail.
Protectors adjacent to appliance do not claim effective protection. Protection (to even protect less robust plug-in protectors) must be at the service entrance. These superior products (from other companies known for integrity) cost about $1 per protected appliance. Come with numbers that even claim protection from direct lightning strikes.
A protector that failed did not do protection. To avert a house fire, its thermal fuse must disconnect protector parts as fast as possible. Leaving that destructive transient fully connected to nearby appliances.
Superior protection inside electronics protected electronics.
Some numbers. Long before PCs existed, international design standards required 120 volt electronics to withstand transients up to 600 volts without damage. Normal operation for many 120 volt powered electronics is constant voltages even at 265 volts. Nobody can say those protectors did anything useful without citing specification numbers.
So that plug-in protectors do not create a house fire (when failing), informed consumers earth a 'whole house' protector (at the service entrance). Lightning is typically 20,000 amps. So a minimal 'whole house' protector is 50,000 amps. Since protectors, that fail, do no protection. Effective protectors must even earth direct lightning strikes. Remain functional for many decades. With specification numbers that say so.
A thousands joules protector is often inferior to protection inside electronics. It can fail. Electronics survive. Then wild speculation credits that protector; not protection that is required to be inside all electronics.
Effective protection only exists when at the service entrance. Must have low impedance (ie less than 10 foot) connection to earth ground electrodes. A failing protector means protector parts disconnected as fast as possible - leaving a destructive voltage fully connected to appliances. Service entrance protectors are sized so as to not fail.
0
Protection only exists when each wire connects to that earthing electrode. Three AC wires enter. Only one connects directly to earth.
A lightning strike many blocks away mean a surge is incoming and hunting for earth ground destructively via appliances. Incoming on those other two wires that have no earth ground. Those connects a direct lightning strikes into all household appliances.
TV cable has no protector. A low impedance (ie less than 10 foot) hardwire must connect from cable to earth ground electrodes. Installed for free because it is required by codes and industry standards. Then TV cable has best protection.
Telephone cannot connect direct to earth. So a protector must connect each telephone wire to those earthing electrodes. Also low impedance (ie hardwire has no sharp bends or splices). That protector is only doing what a TV cable's hardwire does better. Connect low impedance (ie less than 10 feet) to single point earth ground.
AC electric has no protection if one does not properly earth a 'whole house' protector. Effective protectors come from other companies known for integrity. Including Intermatic, Square D, Ditek, Siemens, Polyphaser, Syscom, Leviton, ABB, Delta, Erico, and Cutler-Hammer (Eaton).
Direct lightning strikes (incoming to appliances) can be 20,000 amps. So a minimal 'whole house' protector is 50,000 amps. Only scam protectors fail on a surge. That 'whole house' protector must remain functional for many decades after many direct lightning strikes. And typically costs tens or 100 times less money (per appliance) compared to ineffective profit centers marketed as protectors.
Effective solution always answers this question. Where do hundreds of thousands of joules harmlessly dissipate? No protector does protection. A protector is only as effective as its low impedance (ie hardwire not inside metallic conduit) connection to and the quality of earth ground. (Obviously wall receptacle safety ground is not earth ground.)
A lightning strike many blocks away mean a surge is incoming and hunting for earth ground destructively via appliances. Incoming on those other two wires that have no earth ground. Those connects a direct lightning strikes into all household appliances.
TV cable has no protector. A low impedance (ie less than 10 foot) hardwire must connect from cable to earth ground electrodes. Installed for free because it is required by codes and industry standards. Then TV cable has best protection.
Telephone cannot connect direct to earth. So a protector must connect each telephone wire to those earthing electrodes. Also low impedance (ie hardwire has no sharp bends or splices). That protector is only doing what a TV cable's hardwire does better. Connect low impedance (ie less than 10 feet) to single point earth ground.
AC electric has no protection if one does not properly earth a 'whole house' protector. Effective protectors come from other companies known for integrity. Including Intermatic, Square D, Ditek, Siemens, Polyphaser, Syscom, Leviton, ABB, Delta, Erico, and Cutler-Hammer (Eaton).
Direct lightning strikes (incoming to appliances) can be 20,000 amps. So a minimal 'whole house' protector is 50,000 amps. Only scam protectors fail on a surge. That 'whole house' protector must remain functional for many decades after many direct lightning strikes. And typically costs tens or 100 times less money (per appliance) compared to ineffective profit centers marketed as protectors.
Effective solution always answers this question. Where do hundreds of thousands of joules harmlessly dissipate? No protector does protection. A protector is only as effective as its low impedance (ie hardwire not inside metallic conduit) connection to and the quality of earth ground. (Obviously wall receptacle safety ground is not earth ground.)
re: Help With New TV
Posted by westom on 10/10/20 at 4:02 pm to UltimaParadox
If any item needs protection, then every appliance (many less robust than a TV) must be protected. Including dishwasher, clock radios, central air, LED & CFL bulbs, refrigerator, recharging electronics, GFCIs, washing machine, furnace, door bell, and smoke detectors. What protects all? Same thing that protects a less robust household appliance - that plug-in protector.
Protection only exists when a destructive transient is nowhere inside. When those hundreds of thousands of joules harmlessly dissipate outside. How many joules will a magic power strip dissipate? Thousand? Near zero.
A surge too tiny to damage electronics may also destroy that obscenely profitable protector. That failure gets many to recommend that tiny joule protector. And buy more.
An IEEE brochure clearly demonstrated the problem. A protector in one room (without a low impedance connection to earth ground) earthed a surge destructively through a TV in the adjacent room. IEEE even said how destructively - 8,000 volts.
Once a surge is inside, then nothing will avert a destructive hunt for earth ground. Informed consumers connect a 'whole house' protector low impedance (ie less than 10 feet) to what does all protection. Single point earth ground.
Protectors that do not claim such protection have no low impedance connection to earth. Have no dedicated wire to make that connection. Typically cost tens of times more money per protected appliance. And have no numbers that claim protection.
Some numbers: Lightning is typically 20,000 amps. So a minimal 'whole house' protector is 50,000 amps. Only protectors, that do not fail, provide effective protection. Remain functional for decades. And will also avert this: LINK
> A plug caught fire in my room (which was plugged into a surge protecter) it was caused by a power surge and caused my tank to burst.
Protection only exists when a destructive transient (ie lightning is only one example) is not anywhere inside. Facilities, that cannot have damage, do not use plug-in boxes. And always earth a surge BEFORE it can enter.
Protection only exists when a destructive transient is nowhere inside. When those hundreds of thousands of joules harmlessly dissipate outside. How many joules will a magic power strip dissipate? Thousand? Near zero.
A surge too tiny to damage electronics may also destroy that obscenely profitable protector. That failure gets many to recommend that tiny joule protector. And buy more.
An IEEE brochure clearly demonstrated the problem. A protector in one room (without a low impedance connection to earth ground) earthed a surge destructively through a TV in the adjacent room. IEEE even said how destructively - 8,000 volts.
Once a surge is inside, then nothing will avert a destructive hunt for earth ground. Informed consumers connect a 'whole house' protector low impedance (ie less than 10 feet) to what does all protection. Single point earth ground.
Protectors that do not claim such protection have no low impedance connection to earth. Have no dedicated wire to make that connection. Typically cost tens of times more money per protected appliance. And have no numbers that claim protection.
Some numbers: Lightning is typically 20,000 amps. So a minimal 'whole house' protector is 50,000 amps. Only protectors, that do not fail, provide effective protection. Remain functional for decades. And will also avert this: LINK
> A plug caught fire in my room (which was plugged into a surge protecter) it was caused by a power surge and caused my tank to burst.
Protection only exists when a destructive transient (ie lightning is only one example) is not anywhere inside. Facilities, that cannot have damage, do not use plug-in boxes. And always earth a surge BEFORE it can enter.
Surge protector never does surge protection. A protector is only a connecting device to what does all protection - to what harmlessly dissipates hundreds of thousands of joules.
If an A/C needs that protection, then every household appliance (dishwasher, clock radios, washing machine, LED & CFL bulbs, modem, refrigerator, GFCIs, door bell, garage door opener, microwave oven, dimmer switches, and smoke detectors) must be protected.
Protection only exists when a potentially destructive transient is connected low impedance (ie less than 10 feet) to earth. Only earth harmlessly absorbs surge - as made obvious by the number - hundreds of thousands of joules.
A protector in an A/C has no earth ground. Earth ground only exists at the service entrance. Where effective protectors (installed for free and required by code) also exist for telephone, TV cable, satellite dish, etc.
One 'whole house' protector, that costs about $1 per protected appliance, is also superior protection for an A/C. Since that is how it was done in all facilities that could not have damage even 100 years ago.
An effective solution always answers this question. Where do hundreds of thousands of joules harmlessly dissipate? Lightning is typically 20,000 amps. So a minimal 'whole house' protector is 50,000 amps. Then it is a connecting device so that hundreds of thousands of joules dissipate harmlessly in earth. Are not anywhere inside a home.
If an A/C needs that protection, then every household appliance (dishwasher, clock radios, washing machine, LED & CFL bulbs, modem, refrigerator, GFCIs, door bell, garage door opener, microwave oven, dimmer switches, and smoke detectors) must be protected.
Protection only exists when a potentially destructive transient is connected low impedance (ie less than 10 feet) to earth. Only earth harmlessly absorbs surge - as made obvious by the number - hundreds of thousands of joules.
A protector in an A/C has no earth ground. Earth ground only exists at the service entrance. Where effective protectors (installed for free and required by code) also exist for telephone, TV cable, satellite dish, etc.
One 'whole house' protector, that costs about $1 per protected appliance, is also superior protection for an A/C. Since that is how it was done in all facilities that could not have damage even 100 years ago.
An effective solution always answers this question. Where do hundreds of thousands of joules harmlessly dissipate? Lightning is typically 20,000 amps. So a minimal 'whole house' protector is 50,000 amps. Then it is a connecting device so that hundreds of thousands of joules dissipate harmlessly in earth. Are not anywhere inside a home.
Best protection for any wiring - 1920 or 2020 - is that same 'whole house' solution. Wiring does not make damage easier. Generally wiring, not maintained, causes threats to humans - not to hardware.
Once a surge is anywhere inside, then it is incoming to every appliance (with or without a protector). It will find destructive connections to earth via one or some appliance. Often a destroyed appliance is protecting other appliances. Since that (and not other appliances) makes a best connection to earth.
What does not make an effective connection to earth? A plug-in protector (with or without a safety grounded receptacle).
Protection is always about this. Where do hundreds of thousands of joules harmlessly dissipate? Internal household wiring is always irrelevant. Since that surge must connect low impedance (ie less than 10 feet) to earth ground BEFORE entering any structure.
That is how it was always done in any facility that cannot have damage even over 100 years ago. That is also a many times less expensive solution.
Once a surge is anywhere inside, then it is incoming to every appliance (with or without a protector). It will find destructive connections to earth via one or some appliance. Often a destroyed appliance is protecting other appliances. Since that (and not other appliances) makes a best connection to earth.
What does not make an effective connection to earth? A plug-in protector (with or without a safety grounded receptacle).
Protection is always about this. Where do hundreds of thousands of joules harmlessly dissipate? Internal household wiring is always irrelevant. Since that surge must connect low impedance (ie less than 10 feet) to earth ground BEFORE entering any structure.
That is how it was always done in any facility that cannot have damage even over 100 years ago. That is also a many times less expensive solution.
If that data is saved, then only serious threats are from hardware damage from a transient or the more common threat - failure from a manufacturing defect.
Informed consumers waste no money on profit center protectors with near zero protection (joule) numbers. Informed consumers spend tens of times less money to properly earth a 'whole house' protector. And focus most attention on the critical item - connections to and quality of single point earth ground.
Since potentially destructive surges are 20,000 amps, then a minimal 'whole house' protector is 50,000 amps. Because effective protectors (that cost tens of times less money) do not fail over many decades after many direct lightning strikes.
That is protector life expectancy over many surges. Protector effectiveness during each surge is defined by the low impedance (ie less than 10 foot) connection to earth ground and the quality of that earthing electrode.
That (and not myths hyped by irrelevant PE papers) is how protection has been done even in every facility that cannot have damage even 100 years ago. Informed professionals (demonstrates by three examples) always recommend that and not advertising myths.
If a laptop needs protection, then so does everything else inside the building. Only a 'whole house' solution, from other companies so well know for integrity, provides best protection. 99.5% protection (nothing is perfect because humans make mistakes). For decades, to avert fires created by protector, so that nobody knows a surge existed, and for tens of times less money.
Reasons why only posted by those who were doing this stuff probably long before he was even born.
The effective solution always answers this question. Where do hundreds of thousands of joules harmlessly dissipate. A protector is only as effective as its earth ground.
Informed consumers waste no money on profit center protectors with near zero protection (joule) numbers. Informed consumers spend tens of times less money to properly earth a 'whole house' protector. And focus most attention on the critical item - connections to and quality of single point earth ground.
Since potentially destructive surges are 20,000 amps, then a minimal 'whole house' protector is 50,000 amps. Because effective protectors (that cost tens of times less money) do not fail over many decades after many direct lightning strikes.
That is protector life expectancy over many surges. Protector effectiveness during each surge is defined by the low impedance (ie less than 10 foot) connection to earth ground and the quality of that earthing electrode.
That (and not myths hyped by irrelevant PE papers) is how protection has been done even in every facility that cannot have damage even 100 years ago. Informed professionals (demonstrates by three examples) always recommend that and not advertising myths.
If a laptop needs protection, then so does everything else inside the building. Only a 'whole house' solution, from other companies so well know for integrity, provides best protection. 99.5% protection (nothing is perfect because humans make mistakes). For decades, to avert fires created by protector, so that nobody knows a surge existed, and for tens of times less money.
Reasons why only posted by those who were doing this stuff probably long before he was even born.
The effective solution always answers this question. Where do hundreds of thousands of joules harmlessly dissipate. A protector is only as effective as its earth ground.
re: Surge Protector/ Power Strip for Home office recommendations?
Posted by westom on 5/9/19 at 9:13 pm to notsince98
quote:
Surges coming from the inside of a home cannot be prevented by any SPD and likely can't protect anything due to small wiring in branch circuits.
So much is wrong with that statement that I hardly know where to begin.
If surges exist inside a house, then GFCIs, furnace controls, dishwasher electronics, dimmer switches, LED & CFL bulbs, and smoke detectors are replaced daily. How many have you replaced this week or this decade? That tiny number says no surges are created inside. At most, only noise. That myth is invented / encouraged by ineffective protector manufacturers to scam naive consumers.
How often is your central air and garage door opener creating well over 330 volt spikes on 120 volt circuits? First, if they are, then nearest electronics are first destroyed. IOW that central air or garage door opener is first damaged. Then other appliances damaged by a surge that occurs daily.
If that spike exists, then tiny joules inside protectors are first to fail. How many protectors were damaged this week by daily generated spikes?
And finally, if those spikes exist, then one 'whole house' protector eliminates them. To make a myth work, they need you to wish a protector only works when between a surge source and appliance. Protectors that work that way (that magically 'block' or 'absorb' a surge) are tiny joules - ineffective - fail on a first surge to increase sales and profits.
A sacrificial SPD violates what protector part manufacturers state must not happen. Catastrophic failure is a reason for protector fires. Absolute Maximum Parameters define numbers for unacceptable operation - catastrophic failure. Any protector that fails catastrophically was doing no appliance protection. And is also a threat to human life.
That plug-in protector probably has a "Protector Good" light. That light can never report the acceptable failure mode - degradation. It only reports an unacceptable failure - catastrophic. IOW that light says a protector was so undersized that emergency protection circuits (ie one amp thermal fuse) were activated to protect human life.
Why does a failed protector still power appliances? Because its protector parts were disconnected as fast as possible to avert fire. And that same surge remained connected to attached appliances. That same surge (that destroyed a tiny joule protector) was too tiny to overwhelm better protection inside the appliance. The appliance was never disconnected from that surge - that was too tiny to damage the appliance.
UL is only about protecting human life. UL 1449 only tests a protector enough to demonstrate it has protector circuits. That protector can completely fail on those tiny C.62 test transients - and still be UL approved. They don't care that it is grossly undersized - poor quality. They only care that it does not spit sparks and fire if / when it fails.
Joules define every plug-in SPD design. Read MOV datasheets before making accusations. And read specification for that protector. What spec number always appears in the category that is called Surge Protection? Joules. When a protector part has more joules, then more current is necessary to exceed its joule number - cause catastrophic failure. Apparently you did not design these things. Did not read datasheets. And did not routinely trace surge damage to discover what human mistake permitted a surge current inside.
Not surge voltage. Surges are a current source - not a voltage source. Electrical engineers know why that difference is so significant.
One who does surge protection spend most time discussing the number one critical item in all protection systems. Some protection systems do not even have protectors. But every one features this: single point earth ground.
Case studies from peers who do this stuff. In this case a Nebraska radio station suffered repeated damage. Then electrical engineers, who never understood this stuff, even disconnected earth grounds assuming that was causing repeat damage.
What did the professionals do to avert all future damage? They installed no protectors. They upgraded the item that defines all protection - earth ground: LINK
Orange County FL suffered repeat damage to 911 Emergency response equipment. They finally brought in informed professionals. Again, no protectors were installed. They fixed the reason for repeat damage at many locations. They fixed improperly installed, defective, or undersized earth grounds: LINK
Another professional describes why they do not suffer surge damage:
quote:
Well I assert, from personal and broadcast experience spanning 30 years, that you can design a system that will handle *direct lightning strikes* on a routine basis. It takes some planning and careful layout, but it's not hard, nor is it overly expensive. At WXIA-TV, my other job, we take direct lightning strikes nearly every time there's a thunderstorm. Our downtime from such strikes is almost non-existant. The last time we went down from a strike, it was due to a strike on the power company's lines knocking *them* out, ...
Since my disasterous strike, I've been campaigning vigorously to educate amateurs that you *can* avoid damage from direct strikes. The belief that there's no protection from direct strike damage is *myth*. ...
The keys to effective lightning protection are surprisingly simple, and surprisingly less than obvious. Of course you *must* have a single point ground system that eliminates all ground loops. And you must present a low *impedance* path for the energy to go. That's most generally a low *inductance* path rather than just a low ohm DC path.
And yes, we often went into facilities after damage happened to demonstrate and correct human mistakes (ie plug-in protectors) that did no protection or even made damage easier.
In one classic case, plug-in protectors earthed a surge destructively through an entire network of powered off computers. We literally replaced every damaged semiconductor to trace that surge path and to fully restore all computers. But then we had to submit our analysis and conclusions also to design reviews.
Even the popular internally generated surge is a myth as demonstrated by so many reasons why - only some already posted.
Plug-in protectors should never be used if a 'whole house' solution does not exist and connected to single point earth ground. Then the 'whole house' protector does (according to the IEEE) 99.5% to 99.9% of the protection. And a plug-in protector can do an additional 0.2%. Yes, a plug-in protector can do some protection ... only if a properly earthed 'whole house' solution exists.
UL is only about protecting humans. UL is never about performance of hardware. It only defined what is necessary to protect humans. Plug-in protectors that have near zero protection (near zero joules) can have a UL listing as long as its failure does not threaten human life - ie create fires during testing.
Since a surge, too tiny to damage appliances, also destroys that tiny joule protector, then the "sacrificial protector" myth lives on. Effective protectors (if properly earthed) do not fail for many decades even after many direct lightning strikes. Also also protect from a mythical, internally generated surge.
A 200 or 400 joule protector means a protector can fail on surges too tiny to damage any appliances. As long as that joule number is above zero. then advertising can hype it as 100% protection. Lying subjectively is legal.
re: Surge Protector/ Power Strip for Home office recommendations?
Posted by westom on 5/9/19 at 5:09 pm to notsince98
UL 1449 and UL 489 says nothing about quality. A protector can do no hardware protection and still have those numbers. UL is only about protecting human life. UL says nothing about the quality of hardware.
This protector was also UL 1449 listed. Why is this called quality? LINK
This one was also UL 1449 listed. Where is quality defined? LINK
IEEE C.62 defines a test waveform. How does a test waveform define quality? It can conduct that test waveform ... to what? If that current does not travel on a low impedance path to earth ground, then a C.62 waveform can pass directly or destructively into anything else.
A typically destructive surge can be 20,000 amps. So a minimal 'whole house' protector is 50,000 amps. A 10kA protector is undersized. But again, only numbers for one item in a system are posted. That says nothing about the entire system. Quality is only defined at a system level. Protector is only one component of that system.
Another critical number that defines quality is length of that hardwire. Too long means excessive impedance - no effective protection. Inferior quality.
An IEEE brochure clearly demonstrates this. A UL 1449 protector in one room did exactly what it is expected to do. It earthed a surge destructively through a best connection to earth. It connected that current 8000 volts destructively through a TV in the adjacent room. That is quality?
Quality starts with an answer to this question. Where do hundreds of thousands of joules harmlessly dissipate? How many joules does that UL 1449 protector 'absorb'? Hundreds? Near zero. Why is something that grossly undersized called quality? Advertising myths, lies, wild speculation and subjective reasoning are alive and well. Specification numbers were not posted.
Threshold voltage (330 volts) says nothing about quality. Especially since destructive transients are measured in currents. Voltage only increases when something foolishly tries to 'block' or 'absorb' that current. Somehow the tiny hundreds joule protector part in a UL 1449 power strip will somehow 'block' or 'absorb' that current? Of course not.
That let-through voltage (ie 330 volts) also says voltage will rise to about 900 volts when that protector fails. Effective (quality) protectors do not fail, do not create 1000 volts from a surge current, and remain functional even after many decades and many direct lightning strikes. That quality solution also costs about $1 per protected appliance.
Since it does not threaten human life, it also has a UL listing.
This protector was also UL 1449 listed. Why is this called quality? LINK
This one was also UL 1449 listed. Where is quality defined? LINK
IEEE C.62 defines a test waveform. How does a test waveform define quality? It can conduct that test waveform ... to what? If that current does not travel on a low impedance path to earth ground, then a C.62 waveform can pass directly or destructively into anything else.
A typically destructive surge can be 20,000 amps. So a minimal 'whole house' protector is 50,000 amps. A 10kA protector is undersized. But again, only numbers for one item in a system are posted. That says nothing about the entire system. Quality is only defined at a system level. Protector is only one component of that system.
Another critical number that defines quality is length of that hardwire. Too long means excessive impedance - no effective protection. Inferior quality.
An IEEE brochure clearly demonstrates this. A UL 1449 protector in one room did exactly what it is expected to do. It earthed a surge destructively through a best connection to earth. It connected that current 8000 volts destructively through a TV in the adjacent room. That is quality?
Quality starts with an answer to this question. Where do hundreds of thousands of joules harmlessly dissipate? How many joules does that UL 1449 protector 'absorb'? Hundreds? Near zero. Why is something that grossly undersized called quality? Advertising myths, lies, wild speculation and subjective reasoning are alive and well. Specification numbers were not posted.
Threshold voltage (330 volts) says nothing about quality. Especially since destructive transients are measured in currents. Voltage only increases when something foolishly tries to 'block' or 'absorb' that current. Somehow the tiny hundreds joule protector part in a UL 1449 power strip will somehow 'block' or 'absorb' that current? Of course not.
That let-through voltage (ie 330 volts) also says voltage will rise to about 900 volts when that protector fails. Effective (quality) protectors do not fail, do not create 1000 volts from a surge current, and remain functional even after many decades and many direct lightning strikes. That quality solution also costs about $1 per protected appliance.
Since it does not threaten human life, it also has a UL listing.
re: Surge Protector/ Power Strip for Home office recommendations?
Posted by westom on 5/9/19 at 6:45 am to notsince98
What number defines quality? Clearly not price.
You are asking right questions by asking for numbers. Many who recommend have no idea what these numbers are.
Surges (lightning is only one example) mean protection must somehow harmlessly dissipate hundreds of thousands of joules. Facilities that cannot have damage, even over 100 years ago, routinely did that using a well proven technology originally demonstrated by Franklin over 250 years ago.
A plug-in protector must either 'block' or 'absorb' that surge. How does its 2 cm protector part block what three miles of sky cannot? Obviously it cannot.
How do hundreds or thousand joules inside a tiny protector 'absorb' hundreds of thousands of joules? This can happen: LINK
Your telco CO will suffer about 100 surges with each storm. How often is your town without phone service for four days after every storm while they replace that switching computer? Never? Exactly. Because direct lightning strikes without damage is that routine for as long as telephones have existed.
A typical home may see one potentially destructive surge every seven years. That informed homwowner spends about $1 per protected appliance to protect from all surges including lightning. By using products from other companies known for integrity. By using products that make a low impedance (ie less than 10 foot) connection to single point earth ground. Where do hundreds of thousands of joules harmlessly dissipate? Earth ground. Just like Franklin demonstrated over 250 years ago.
That says what has always worked and what most consumers do not know due to education from advertising, wild speculation, hearsay, and subjective reasoning (no numbers).
Lightning is typically 20,000 amps. So a minimal 'whole house' protector (for about $1 per appliance) is 50,000 amps. Because protectors must connect even direct lightning strikes to earth - and not fail.
Code requires TV cable, telephone, etc to all have effective protection. Every wire inside every incoming cable must make that low impedance (ie less than 3 meter) connection to earth. AC electric is not required to have that protection.
Go to any big box hardware store or electrical supply house. Ask for their 'whole house' protector. Technology is so old as to sell as a commodity. Verify it is at least 50,000 amps.
This is installed on breaker box or meter pan. Or even rented from the AC electric company. That is the protector. But it only does something useful when connected low impedance (ie hardwire does not go up over a foundation and down to electrodes) to what needs most of your attention - single point earth ground.
That summarizes what works, what is also less expensive, what must be learned, and what is necessary. If any one appliance needs protection, then every household appliance (dishwasher, clocks, refrigerator, dimmer switches, garage door opener, central air, GFCIs, and smoke detectors) needs that protection.
Plenty more question should result. Only introduced is a simpler and reliable solution that means direct lightning strikes without damage even to a protector. So that protection remains functional for many decades.
Effective protection always answers this question. Where do hundreds of thousands of joules harmlessly dissipate? A protector is only as effective as the item that does the protection - single point earth ground.
Wall receptacle safety ground is not earth ground. No plug-in protector has an earth ground connection; is ineffective protection. It can even compromise what is better protection already inside appliances. Read spec numbers from a UPS. Even less protection.
Surges (lightning is only one example) mean protection must somehow harmlessly dissipate hundreds of thousands of joules. Facilities that cannot have damage, even over 100 years ago, routinely did that using a well proven technology originally demonstrated by Franklin over 250 years ago.
A plug-in protector must either 'block' or 'absorb' that surge. How does its 2 cm protector part block what three miles of sky cannot? Obviously it cannot.
How do hundreds or thousand joules inside a tiny protector 'absorb' hundreds of thousands of joules? This can happen: LINK
Your telco CO will suffer about 100 surges with each storm. How often is your town without phone service for four days after every storm while they replace that switching computer? Never? Exactly. Because direct lightning strikes without damage is that routine for as long as telephones have existed.
A typical home may see one potentially destructive surge every seven years. That informed homwowner spends about $1 per protected appliance to protect from all surges including lightning. By using products from other companies known for integrity. By using products that make a low impedance (ie less than 10 foot) connection to single point earth ground. Where do hundreds of thousands of joules harmlessly dissipate? Earth ground. Just like Franklin demonstrated over 250 years ago.
That says what has always worked and what most consumers do not know due to education from advertising, wild speculation, hearsay, and subjective reasoning (no numbers).
Lightning is typically 20,000 amps. So a minimal 'whole house' protector (for about $1 per appliance) is 50,000 amps. Because protectors must connect even direct lightning strikes to earth - and not fail.
Code requires TV cable, telephone, etc to all have effective protection. Every wire inside every incoming cable must make that low impedance (ie less than 3 meter) connection to earth. AC electric is not required to have that protection.
Go to any big box hardware store or electrical supply house. Ask for their 'whole house' protector. Technology is so old as to sell as a commodity. Verify it is at least 50,000 amps.
This is installed on breaker box or meter pan. Or even rented from the AC electric company. That is the protector. But it only does something useful when connected low impedance (ie hardwire does not go up over a foundation and down to electrodes) to what needs most of your attention - single point earth ground.
That summarizes what works, what is also less expensive, what must be learned, and what is necessary. If any one appliance needs protection, then every household appliance (dishwasher, clocks, refrigerator, dimmer switches, garage door opener, central air, GFCIs, and smoke detectors) needs that protection.
Plenty more question should result. Only introduced is a simpler and reliable solution that means direct lightning strikes without damage even to a protector. So that protection remains functional for many decades.
Effective protection always answers this question. Where do hundreds of thousands of joules harmlessly dissipate? A protector is only as effective as the item that does the protection - single point earth ground.
Wall receptacle safety ground is not earth ground. No plug-in protector has an earth ground connection; is ineffective protection. It can even compromise what is better protection already inside appliances. Read spec numbers from a UPS. Even less protection.
It is not cheap cords or undersizing. Problem is extension cords move and are exposed. So arc fault breakers were created. Too many bedrooms used extension cords that moved too much, were crushed, etc. Therefore fires resulted.
An extension cord - all of them - is only for temporary service. Typically 30 days.
AC receptacle can only safely provide 15 amps. Any power expansion device must have a 15 amp circuit breaker.
Plug-in surge protectors, with near zero joules, are another fire hazard especially if not protected by a properly earthed 'whole house' solution. If using a power strip, best is to have no protector parts (that can even make appliance damage easier) and always has that circuit breaker.
An extension cord - all of them - is only for temporary service. Typically 30 days.
AC receptacle can only safely provide 15 amps. Any power expansion device must have a 15 amp circuit breaker.
Plug-in surge protectors, with near zero joules, are another fire hazard especially if not protected by a properly earthed 'whole house' solution. If using a power strip, best is to have no protector parts (that can even make appliance damage easier) and always has that circuit breaker.
quote:
This fridge is 5/6 yrs. old and has been though several power surges.
If several transients that exceeded 1000 volts existed, then how many other appliances were damaged?
A blackout (outage) is not a surge. However advertising promotes that myth to sell plug-in protectors. If a surge existed, then other surge destroyed appliances are listed. What protected the dishwasher, GFCIs, clocks, and so many less robust appliances?
Your symptoms are more consistent with a more common reason for failure - manufacturing defect. To say more means a failed motherboard part must be defined. A dead body is always best evidence.
Meanwhile, if a properly earthed 'whole house' protector does not exist, then you have all but invited surges to come inside. To threaten central air, dimmer switches, microwave, GFCIs, garage door opener, furnace, LED & CFL bulbs, and smoke detectors.
Only a manufacturer can prevent manufacturing defects. Only a 'whole house' solution (properly earthed) is effective protection from something that occurs maybe once every seven years (surge). To even make surge damage easier, then use an adjacent power strip protector.
What did you do to avert future failures?
re: PAGING NAPOLEAN LG refrigerator stop working UPDATE
Posted by westom on 9/29/18 at 5:39 pm to Y.A. Tittle
Effective protection means everything (dishwasher, clocks, central air, dimmer switches, microwave, GFCIs, garage door opener, furnace, LED & CFL bulbs, smoke detectors) is protected. Worse, no plug-in protetor claims effective protection. Anyone can read specification numbers. Most do not and make a recommendation anyway.
A plug-in protector can cost $20 or $90. One properly earthed 'whole house' solution (that protects everything) costs about $1 per appliance. Tens of times less money. And with numbers that actually define protection.
Worse, a plug-in protector can even make nearby appliance damage easier; compromise (bypass) what is better protection inside electronics.
Safety ground does nothing to protect any appliance and does not make any plug-in protector effective. Wall receptacle safety ground is not earth ground.
Only assumed is what caused electronics failure. Why not only a fuse? Or the most common reason for failure - manufacturing defect? Long before blaming electronics, well, why were all those other unprotected appliances also undamaged?
Maybe a homeowner all but invited a surge inside. So it went hunting for a best connection to earth. Once inside, then nothing can protect from a typically destructive surge. Protection always means earthing it outside so that a surge is not inside.
What is protecting all those other appliances?
A plug-in protector can cost $20 or $90. One properly earthed 'whole house' solution (that protects everything) costs about $1 per appliance. Tens of times less money. And with numbers that actually define protection.
Worse, a plug-in protector can even make nearby appliance damage easier; compromise (bypass) what is better protection inside electronics.
Safety ground does nothing to protect any appliance and does not make any plug-in protector effective. Wall receptacle safety ground is not earth ground.
Only assumed is what caused electronics failure. Why not only a fuse? Or the most common reason for failure - manufacturing defect? Long before blaming electronics, well, why were all those other unprotected appliances also undamaged?
Maybe a homeowner all but invited a surge inside. So it went hunting for a best connection to earth. Once inside, then nothing can protect from a typically destructive surge. Protection always means earthing it outside so that a surge is not inside.
What is protecting all those other appliances?
re: Computer is dead....again!
Posted by westom on 1/10/18 at 5:27 pm to Shotgun Willie
Why assume a power surge existed? How many other household appliances were also destroyed by a surge?
How did a surge get into a motheerboard without passing through the PSU?
What part on a motherboard was damaged? If he did not know that, then he did not even know if a motherboard is damaged.
A power supply will not power on until a power controller authorizes it. Only a power controller decides when a PSU will power off. Why did he not discuss that power controller?
If a surge existed, then hardware is damaged - would not even power on or boot. So many who repair computers have no idea what a PSU does, how surges do damage, or even what a power controller is.
A constant defect in a power system sometimes works fine and sometimes causes failures. Which power system component is defective? Only tools such as a digital meter can say.
Informed techs never disconnect one wire or replace a part until after a defect is identified. Meter is essential.
Did you have a battery backup (UPS) or a surge protector? Completely different devices. A UPS might have a few hundreds joules. Near zero. Too tiny to avert any surge. But just enough above zero to hype a UPS as 100% surge protection - subjectively where it is legal to lie subjectively - in sales brochures.
If a UPS, then best protection must be in a PSU.
I can list something less than 50 different reasons for your symptoms - that are only subjective. Start again. Informed assistance requires numbers by getting a meter, requesting instructions, and performing two minutes of labor. What follows is an answer without any more "it could be" expressions.
Long before any other part can be suspected, first a power supply system must be known good. Not speculated good; known good. Otherwise other perfectly good parts (ie motherboard) will act defective. Informed answers always first require numbers.
How did a surge get into a motheerboard without passing through the PSU?
What part on a motherboard was damaged? If he did not know that, then he did not even know if a motherboard is damaged.
A power supply will not power on until a power controller authorizes it. Only a power controller decides when a PSU will power off. Why did he not discuss that power controller?
If a surge existed, then hardware is damaged - would not even power on or boot. So many who repair computers have no idea what a PSU does, how surges do damage, or even what a power controller is.
A constant defect in a power system sometimes works fine and sometimes causes failures. Which power system component is defective? Only tools such as a digital meter can say.
Informed techs never disconnect one wire or replace a part until after a defect is identified. Meter is essential.
Did you have a battery backup (UPS) or a surge protector? Completely different devices. A UPS might have a few hundreds joules. Near zero. Too tiny to avert any surge. But just enough above zero to hype a UPS as 100% surge protection - subjectively where it is legal to lie subjectively - in sales brochures.
If a UPS, then best protection must be in a PSU.
I can list something less than 50 different reasons for your symptoms - that are only subjective. Start again. Informed assistance requires numbers by getting a meter, requesting instructions, and performing two minutes of labor. What follows is an answer without any more "it could be" expressions.
Long before any other part can be suspected, first a power supply system must be known good. Not speculated good; known good. Otherwise other perfectly good parts (ie motherboard) will act defective. Informed answers always first require numbers.
quote:
Thanks, I'm thinking this may be my problem.
Damage exists because a human failed to earth that surge current BEFORE it entered. Many have recommended a 'whole house' protector since AC electric has no protection without that essential device. And only if properly earthed (ie a less than 10 foot hardwire to single point earth ground).
If dish is not earthed (hardwired) to a same electrode (before entering), then it can be an incoming path or the outgoing path.
Incoming on AC mains to everything. That current is hunting for a best connection to earth. It found one maybe destructively via a TV and outgoing to the dish's earth ground. Since that TV was a best outgoing path, then best protection also in other appliances need not be overwhelmed.
If any wire in any incoming cable does not make a low impedance (ie less than 10 foot) hardwire connection to that same one electrode, then appliance damage is made easier.
TV cable and satellite dish connected low impedance (ie less than 10 feet) to earth is best protection. AC electric and telephone cannot connect direct to earth. So a 'whole house' protector must do what a hardwire does better.
Does an invisible dog fence also make that required earth ground connection? Another potential incoming path to a TV.
Protection means a surge current is not anywhere inside. A surge current passes through wires, appliance, and other items. But that current typically only damages one item in that path. HDMI ports are often a victim of a current that passed through but did not damage circuit breakers, wires in walls, and TV power supply.
How did that current connect to earth? That answer then demonstrates where a homeowner must correct his mistake. A surge that does not enter a building will not overwhelm what is already best protection inside each appliance.
quote:
what is the difference between your shock and her pop?
You might not want an answer. Blow up dolls pop.
> Electricity traveled through the surge protector, fried the surround sound, and travelled through the Xbox into the guitar.
That protector explains why robust protection already inside the surround sound and Xbox were compromised. Microsoft also recommends no protector on the Xbox.
If a house is properly wired, as defined by code, then lightning does not threaten anyone in a bathtub or shower.
That protector explains why robust protection already inside the surround sound and Xbox were compromised. Microsoft also recommends no protector on the Xbox.
If a house is properly wired, as defined by code, then lightning does not threaten anyone in a bathtub or shower.
re: Need a new TV. Last night's storms got one of mine.
Posted by westom on 8/10/16 at 9:18 pm to TeddyPadillac
quote:
Knocked out my router, but not my modem. Both on the same outlet.
Knocked out my radio, but not the charging ipad on the same outlet.
That is exactly what a surge does when one does not properly earth a well proven 'whole house' solution. Also what happens when plug-in protectors are used.
A surge incoming on AC mains is all but invited inside to hunt for earth ground. That surge is incoming to everything. Is everything damaged? Of course not. A surge is electricity. Both an incoming and an outgoing path to earth must exist - simultaneously. Incoming is to everything. Surge selects items that best make an outgoing path to earth (ie router, radio, bluetooth speaker). Meaning other appliances (modem, ipad, TV) were protected.
Damage occurred because a surge was all but invited inside by the homeowner. Either it is earthed BEFORE entering. Or it finds earth destructively via appliances. Worse, adjacent protectors sometimes make that damage easier.
Informed homeowners spend about $1 per protected appliance for what has protected from direct lightning strikes even over 100 years ago. Provided by companies known for integrity. Companies such as Belkin, Panamax, Tripplite, APC, and Monster are not listed.
Each layer of protection is only defined by what harmlessly absorbs hundreds of thousands of joules. A 'whole house' solution is effective due to a low impedance (ie less than 10 foot) connection to what does protection: single point earth ground.
That 'whole house' solution is your 'secondary' protection layer. Your 'primary' protection layer is installed by the utility. An exploding transformer implies earth ground was missing (or stolen) from your 'primary' protection layer.
Protection is always defined by what absorbs hundreds of thousands of joules. If that earth ground is missing (always missing with plug-in protectors), then that protection layer does not exist.
Protection is always about where hundreds of thousands of joules harmlessly dissipate. A protector is only as effective as its earth ground - as originally demonstrated by Franklin over 250 years ago. And routinely found in facilities that cannot have damage.
re: Need a new TV. Last night's storms got one of mine.
Posted by westom on 8/10/16 at 6:14 am to Titus Pullo
Surges do not blink. A blink might follow a surge. But a surge is a massive incoming transient. Once permitted inside, then that surge is incoming to all appliances. It only damages one or some that make a best connection to earth.
Nothing on its power cord (unfortunately called a surge protector) claims to protect from destructive surges. That magic box only claims to protect from transients already made irrelevant by what is inside all household appliances.
If a 'whole house' protector is not prooperly earthed, then that magic box protector might even create a fire. Since even it needs to be protected by a device connected low impedance (ie less than 10 feet) to single point earth ground.
A five year old TV is still new. Generally, a surge only damages one or very few internal parts. More often, a damaged part is an outgoing path to earth - not an incoming path such as AC electric. Repairs are often easy. Much harder is to find someone with sufficient knowledge and parts to do that repair.
Nothing on its power cord (unfortunately called a surge protector) claims to protect from destructive surges. That magic box only claims to protect from transients already made irrelevant by what is inside all household appliances.
If a 'whole house' protector is not prooperly earthed, then that magic box protector might even create a fire. Since even it needs to be protected by a device connected low impedance (ie less than 10 feet) to single point earth ground.
A five year old TV is still new. Generally, a surge only damages one or very few internal parts. More often, a damaged part is an outgoing path to earth - not an incoming path such as AC electric. Repairs are often easy. Much harder is to find someone with sufficient knowledge and parts to do that repair.
re: Underground Pet Fence
Posted by westom on 4/22/16 at 10:02 am to slacker130
Lady forgot to put the collar on her dog. She went running after the dog carrying that collar. It zapped her so hard that is floored (grassed) her.
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