re: Buying a new desktop.....All-in-Ones or traditional?

FWIW, my wife is computer illiterate for the most part.

I want my son knowing, understanding, and working with windows and maybe even linux (which I don't have). Without that knowledge, he's depriving himself of the opportunity for thousands of different jobs.

quote:

---

Expensive, but the build quality (aesthetics and aluminum casing) and OS make it worth the extra $. Just one man's opinion.

---

Definitely beautiful looking machines. The problem is, they are still not worth the price hardware-wise. I'm not saying there's no value in the aesthetics and the "privilege" of using OS X if you prefer it, but what Apple has created is highly effective marketing and a perception of "elite" with a pricetag alongside it. The performance-driving hardware is not as powerful, nor as exclusive, nor as expensive as it's perceived to be.

Let's go by component:
3.2GHz quad-core Intel Core i5 processor (Turbo Boost up to 3.6GHz) with 6MB shared L3 cache
Apple has never been one to tell its customers outright what CPU is in their machines, but assuming it's a Haswell chip, the specs point to i5-4570 (non-R version I'd assume, as it would make no sense to incorporate Iris Pro in a machine with a discrete GPU). It's a good CPU, your standard locked Haswell i5. It's a $200 retail CPU.

8GB 1600MHz DDR3 SDRAM
8GB is an optimal amount of RAM for sure, but we are looking at a $70 retail item. Nothing special about this. JDEC standard specs, 1.5v, CL9 hopefully, probably manufactured by Micron, no heat spreaders, just basic RAM. RAM is RAM.

1TB (7200-rpm) hard drive
Again, basic component, $50-60 retail. This is particularly disappointing since none of Apple's base configurations for the iMac include an SSD by default. Fortunately, most of the configurations are upgradeable to SSD. Unfortunately, Apple charges a premium above retail for SSD upgrades -- $200 to replace the 1TB drive with a 256GB SSD. Merely replacing the 1TB HDD with the fusion drive (A hybrid SSD/HDD that Apple rebranded to make it sound different) is also $200.

NVIDIA GeForce GT 755M graphics processor with 1GB of GDDR5 memory
The 755M is a weak mobile GPU, added as a small bump to any tasks that may benefit from GPU acceleration. Many of the baseline Lenovo gaming laptops for under $1,000 include 2 755Ms in SLI (for reference, two 755Ms are roughly equivalent to a single 860M, which is equivalent to the GTX 750 Ti desktop card). Now, I'm not saying this in an attempt to compare gaming performance, as it's clearly not for gaming, but rather to give you an idea of what little benefit it brings, as well as its cost because you can't exactly buy one off the shelf. However, the last time Lenovo sold those as ultrabay expansions, they were about $100. They are EOL now.

The rest of the internals consist of a custom-fitted and specc'd motherboard to include 802.11ac (assuming 3 spatial streams), Gigabit NIC, all the various ports and card slots, etc. This board is then fabricated by Foxconn (which makes components for nearly half the world's electronics, including motherboards for Apple, Dell, HP, etc.). Since these are custom specc'd designs with a stripped-down bios, meant for a low-heat, low-power configuration, it's impossible to price the retail equivalent. However, based on what Foxconn used to put on the retail market, as well as what mid-range Intel-branded boards sold for (also manufactured by Foxconn), an educated guess would be upwards of $150 to account for the 802.11ac card (whether integrated or discrete). The Foxconn boards along with the rest of the components are then shipped to Quanta, which does the final assembly with a custom-fabricated chassis that integrates the IPS panel with the core components. Quanta makes the chassis/shells for pretty much every major computer brand (HP, Lenovo, Dell, Acer, Apple, Toshiba, etc). Pegatron may do some of them as well, depending on production time and demand.

At this point, we reach just under $600 for its internals, retail. Even generously accounting for a $500 ASUS WQHD IPS panel at retail rather than the $300 Korean Brands (though they do indeed use the same Samsung and LG panels that Apple sources), we're at just under $1100 worth of components (not including Quanta's lasered chassis) that already have wholesale and retail profits + overhead built into the cost. What you're left with is several hundred dollars worth of the work that went into fitting a lot into a tiny space behind the iMac screen, needlessly adding even more money to the production cost for the cool factor in a machine that's not even meant to be portable. What it boils down to is the cost of the iMac is premium Apple pricing on top of the inherent extra cost in fitting low-heat, low-power components in a small form factor.

The price on the refurb is certainly closer to reality than buying new, but the original point of this whole conversation was that All-in-Ones are a poor value to begin with. Apple products do cost more for equivalently configured/powered machines, so adding that premium on top of the poor value of an All-in-One just makes the iMac a foolish purchase. If one were to insist on OS X, especially for such basic functions as the OP desired, at least enjoy the portability and performance tradeoff of the Macbook Pro, or the ultra-portability of the Air, or the better performance/dollar of the Mac Mini.

I know the industry well. I am ready to debate anyone about it at any time so long as they don't act like children and have at least some demonstrable technical knowledge to contribute. What people fail to understand is that the Mac vs. everything else argument boils down to preference. Indisputably, Mac hardware is no better than what you can get on any other machine with x86 architecture. Indisputably, Macs cost more than Windows-based PCs for the same level of raw hardware performance and electrical and mechanical longevity. So the question remains: is it worth the significantly extra cost to you for the aesthetics and OS X?

If it is, that's fine (and you indeed said yourself that those things were worth the premium to you. It's the misconception of quality and performance that inspires posts like this, though). There are numerous cases for certain types of consumers to use OS X vs. Windows. The problem with this debate over preference arises when old, outdated Windows stigma comes into play: Windows is less secure, slow, complicated, unstable, etc. I've addressed these claims many times in other threads, but to go back to the topic regarding what children should be learning, it's incredibly short-sighted to want to shelter them from a platform that makes up more than 90% of the PC market based on highly exaggerated, ill-informed reasons, especially when you can give as few or as many privileges to each user and protect them from themselves while teaching the basics of safe browsing that are applicable to every platform -- past, present, and future. Am I suggesting that everyone needs to put their kids on a Windows computer? Of course not. I'm saying that child-proofing is a really, really stupid reason for specifically choosing OS X. If you want the honest answer as to what kids should be learning, it's Linux.

quote:

---

ILikeLSUToo

---

Thanks for the break down. Seriously.

I'm in the market for a new machine, and my requirements are pretty minimal. I want a machine that I will mostly use for 4 things:

1) Light gaming (mostly RTS games like AOE 2, Total Annihilation, Empire Earth, etc.)
2) Photo editing (just had a boy 3 weeks ago, and have always been interested in photography)
3) Web browsing
4) Listening to music throughout the house (have a nice home theater and the receiver has AirPlay functionality built in)

I'm not an Apple fan boy by any means, and have even thought about building my own HTPC. I like the iMac, and know they're a bit over priced... even tried to talk myself out of looking at them, yet I still like 'em.

We'll see what happens...

quote:

---

ILikeLSUToo

---

Thanks. If I do a build, I'll probably do something similar.

I've looked at some of the builds you listed on gaming board... that had some good build ideas on there as well.

I'm probably gonna wait a bit before I buy or build anything. I'm the type of person that gets buyers remorse if I don't buy exactly what I want... so I usually over analyze the crap out of everything before I pull the trigger.

What programs do you have in mind?

I guess none sweeten the deal anymore with free Office or things like that?

I don't know of any that offer full Office for free or otherwise built into the price. Some ship with "office starter" which is a stripped down version of Word and Excel with ads. Other than that, I've only seen the real office suite being preloaded as a trial. But as I said, software is not a concern... unless your conscience disagrees.

quote:

---

But as I said, software is not a concern... unless your conscience disagrees.

---

Another lesson you gonna teach your kids?

Bookmarked the shite out of that post.

quote:

---

Bookmarked the shite out of that post.

---

I thought I remember you posting in the PC thread on the gaming board looking for a gaming PC. If so, that build isn't the most ideal for a gaming setup (even assuming you'd add a discrete GPU to it). This one is configured more for productivity. For a gaming PC, I'd recommend a Z-series chipset and an unlocked CPU like the 4690K (or 990FX if going AMD).

quote:

---

Sure. You talk about teaching your kids to steal software all you want.

---

I am a very immoral person by your standards.