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crazy4lsu
USA Fan
Member since May 2005
21052 posts

re: If you think anyone who's ever played soccer is better than Lionel Messi, you're stupid
He was also coming into the tournament injured, and frankly, played really well. He did carry Argentina on his back, irrespective of the idea that he may not have done anything memorable. It's hard for me to think that despite creating as many chances as he did, and scoring half of all the goals Argentina scored that tournament, people are still acting like he underperformed. Maybe it's a testament to his own high standards, but he played extremely well by pretty much every metric. He did not have a standout solo performance, like Zidane vs Brazil, or Maradona vs England, but that doesn't have anything to do with how well he did play.


TFTC
LSU Fan
Chicago, Il
Member since May 2010
18401 posts

re: If you think anyone who's ever played soccer is better than Lionel Messi, you're stupid
quote:

He did carry Argentina on his back


Not understating the value of Messi, but Mascherano was every bit as important to Argentina's WC run...

But no argument from me on his overall greatness... he's the best..


crazy4lsu
USA Fan
Member since May 2005
21052 posts

re: If you think anyone who's ever played soccer is better than Lionel Messi, you're stupid
quote:

To me it's all about goals and scoring and the guy I watch game after game scoring every way possible is cr7.



The thing Ronaldo does better than anyone is to exploit space, with or without the ball. Watching that man on the counter is amazing. Ronaldo might be a complete forward, but Messi is far more versatile, and can drive a team through his passing, or finish chances if a team can supply him with passes. Messi could play deep, in the hole, or wide, and he'd still be the best in the world. Ronaldo is far better than Messi at moving without the ball, as Messi excels with the ball at his feet, but Ronaldo is very reliant on service in a way that Messi isn't. Messi can create lots of goals through his own dribbles, while Ronaldo operates like a traditional forward except on steroids.

And I think part of the distinction is cultural. The European game has valued the off the ball and passing game much more than the rest of the world, but South America still emphasizes the dribbling game, which is closer to what the sport use to be in the 1980's and before. Even now, the street games in Argentina emphasize dribbling above all else. I mean, this is not always true in 100% of cases, but in general carrying the ball forward is more common in non-European versions of the game. Messi seems to combine the desire to carry the ball with superb passing ability. Messi could stop scoring goals tomorrow and he'd still be the best no.10 in the world. There are a lot of great dribblers in the world, but Messi always seems to release the ball at the right time. This isn't to say Ronaldo can't dribble; he can, but he's done a lot less of it from his Man U days, and now operates as a wide forward who will pounce on the smallest window of space.


crazy4lsu
USA Fan
Member since May 2005
21052 posts

re: If you think anyone who's ever played soccer is better than Lionel Messi, you're stupid
Masc was, but Argentina's team shape got the worst out of Messi and the other attackers. Argentina needed a link player so Messi didn't have to drop deep. Trying to jam Lavezzi, Di Maria, Higuian, Messi, and Aguero would have been a hard job regardless. Maybe if Aguero had been completely healthy he could have served as a nice foil.


WarSlamEagle
Troy Fan
Manchester United Fan
Member since Sep 2011
24604 posts

re: If you think anyone who's ever played soccer is better than Lionel Messi, you're stupid
If you could combine Ronaldo’s athletic gifts with Messi’s skill set, you would have the perfect player.


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TFTC
LSU Fan
Chicago, Il
Member since May 2010
18401 posts

re: If you think anyone who's ever played soccer is better than Lionel Messi, you're stupid
It's a shame Banega's (or Pastore) talent never really carried over to the national team..
This post was edited on 3/4 at 7:36 pm


TheZaba
Charlotte Fan
NC
Member since Oct 2008
4159 posts

re: If you think anyone who's ever played soccer is better than Lionel Messi, you're stupid
Both were in a bit of a funk around that time too weren’t they? Can’t recall if they even were on the squad

Banega’s playing better now though and they also have Paredes. But also have Dybala now too adding to the problem of trying not to play too many attackers and find balance


WarSlamEagle
Troy Fan
Manchester United Fan
Member since Sep 2011
24604 posts

re: If you think anyone who's ever played soccer is better than Lionel Messi, you're stupid
quote:

Messi seems to combine the desire to carry the ball with superb passing ability. Messi could stop scoring goals tomorrow and he'd still be the best no.10 in the world.

This is what made him such an outstanding False 9.


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crazy4lsu
USA Fan
Member since May 2005
21052 posts

re: If you think anyone who's ever played soccer is better than Lionel Messi, you're stupid
Developing a link player has been Argentina's problem for a while. They had Biglia, Gago, Banega, Pastore, and a couple of others. Paredes and Kranevitter are now in Russia, but might be viable options.


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TFTC
LSU Fan
Chicago, Il
Member since May 2010
18401 posts

re: If you think anyone who's ever played soccer is better than Lionel Messi, you're stupid
both of them have always run hot/cold throughout their careers with gaps in their call ups... but man, they are both extremely talented when it comes together..

Paredes is one to watch.. he's shown a lot of promise, though he plays a bit deeper (although I haven't seen him play since he left Roma)

I'm not sure how Dybala and Messi work in the same team...
This post was edited on 3/4 at 7:50 pm


crazy4lsu
USA Fan
Member since May 2005
21052 posts

re: If you think anyone who's ever played soccer is better than Lionel Messi, you're stupid
quote:

I'm not sure how Dybala and Messi work in the same team...



One problem I see with Argentina is that fewer players make runs for Messi than with Barcelona. If players ask for the ball to feet, I'd imagine the attack might be as stilted as it was in 2014.


TheZaba
Charlotte Fan
NC
Member since Oct 2008
4159 posts

re: If you think anyone who's ever played soccer is better than Lionel Messi, you're stupid
That and too many players wanting to operate in the same areas. Everyone wants to cut in to be in the whole or operate in the half space, but without true width or threats out wide, then teams can just pack it in and oversaturate those areas


crazy4lsu
USA Fan
Member since May 2005
21052 posts

re: If you think anyone who's ever played soccer is better than Lionel Messi, you're stupid
One thing that could offset some issues is if they limited Messi's role to RW, which could unbalance other teams as they try to deal with him. Giving him the free role invites those spacing issues. They also don't seem to have a real winger who would move vertically. Dybala is the more likely one to be able to operate as a wide forward on the other side, and in this way you mitigate your midfield issues as you can go to a 3 man midfield, your striker issues are mitigated as now you need a central striker who plays off the shoulder of the left CB, who will be inclined to help his LB deal with Messi, and space is created for the LW or a midfielder to make runs into the box as soon as players shuttle over to the right side of the field.


TheZaba
Charlotte Fan
NC
Member since Oct 2008
4159 posts

re: If you think anyone who's ever played soccer is better than Lionel Messi, you're stupid
But he problem has always been them trying to force their best forwards on the field instead of setting up a balanced team or one with a good understanding of space. I seriously some times if their past managers basically just practiced tactical sessions on FIFA.

And this was made worse by the fact that other than Mascherano, they haven’t really had guys that can hold down a 2 man midfield so they ultimately usually get overrun in the middle of the pitch (leading to Messi dripping deeper)


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jackwoods4
New Orleans Saints Fan
Nashville
Member since Sep 2013
16478 posts
 Online 

re: If you think anyone who's ever played soccer is better than Lionel Messi, you're stupid
quote:

To me it's all about goals and scoring and the guy I watch game after game scoring every way possible is cr7.


Messi has done just as much if not more than Ronaldo at club level. He's scored big goal after big goal for Barcelona. And to act like Ronaldo has been some amazing force for Portugal on a consistent basis but claim Messi isn't is revisionist history.

(Not saying you're doing that, but just talking more in general here)


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0
Illinois Fan
Member since Aug 2011
5787 posts
 Online 

re: If you think anyone who's ever played soccer is better than Lionel Messi, you're stupid
quote:

I’m guessing y’all aren’t old enough to have seen zidane control and dictate an entire game by himself.


Messi has dictated entire seasons by himself. To act like he has a peer is laughable.


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TheIrishFro
Tulane Fan
Member since Aug 2010
4575 posts

re: If you think anyone who's ever played soccer is better than Lionel Messi, you're stupid
quote:


Round of 16: 1 assist, 0 goals
Quarterfinals: 0 assists, 0 goals
Semifinals: 0 assists, 0 goals
Final: 0 assists, 0 goals


Maybe "carried Argentina to the final" wasn't the best word usage. Good selective use of statistics though, not using the groups. Let me give you more from that World Cup to clear it up for everyone.

Argentina in group stage 2014:
Vs. Bosnia: 1 goal (the other goal, an own goal, coming from his free kick)
Vs. Iran: 1 goal
Vs. Nigeria: 2 goals
4/5 goals scored by Argentina are scored by Messi (another goal, an own goal, directly from his play)
Man of the Match for all three games? Lionel Messi

Messi on Argentina's 2014 World Cup team:
Scored 4/7 goals scored by Argentina (no other player scored more than one)
Man of the Match: 4/6 games (no other player got more than one)
Golden Ball award for best player in World Cup: Lionel Messi


This post was edited on 3/5 at 7:47 am


TheIrishFro
Tulane Fan
Member since Aug 2010
4575 posts

re: If you think anyone who's ever played soccer is better than Lionel Messi, you're stupid
Also if we're going statistics happy today. Let's talk about La Liga right now after 27 rounds.

Leader in goals- Messi
Leader in assists- Messi
Leader in passes before the assist- Messi
Leader in shots on goal- Messi
Leader in completed dribbles- Messi
Leader in chances created- Messi



NewbombII
Auburn Fan
Member since Nov 2014
993 posts

re: If you think anyone who's ever played soccer is better than Lionel Messi, you're stupid
Pele and it not close. When we measure players we measure them on their championships. There is no bigger championship than the World Cup. Member of 3 world cup championship teams. Golden Ball and Silver Ball winner
1281 goals in 1363 games. The all time leading goal scorer for Brazil with 77 goals and 92 games.


"Pelé is the greatest player of all time. He reigned supreme for 20 years. All the others – Diego Maradona, Johan Cruyff, Michel Platini – rank beneath him. There's no one to compare with Pelé."
—West Germany's 1974 World Cup-winning captain Franz Beckenbauer.[45]

"The best of all was Pele, who is a mixture of Di Stefano, [Diego] Maradona, Cruyff and Leo Messi."
ARGENTINA'S WORLD CUP-WINNING COACH CESAR LUIS MENOTTI

"Pele was the most complete player I've ever seen. Two good feet. Magic in the air. Quick. Powerful. Could beat people with skill. Could outrun people. Only 5 ft 8 in tall, yet he seemed a giant of an athlete on the pitch. Perfect balance and impossible vision."
BOBBY MOORE

"Messi has all the conditions to be the best, but first he has to beat Maradona, Romario and then eventually Pele."
ROMARIO

"Pele is the greatest player in football history, and there will only be one Pele in the world."
CRISTIANO RONALDO

Malcolm Allison: “How do you spell Pele?”
Pat Crerand: “Easy: G-O-D.”
British television commentators during Mexico 1970

“Pele was the only footballer who surpassed the boundaries of logic.”
Johan Cruyff



Vicks Kennel Club
Chicago Cubs Fan
29-24 #BlewDat
Member since Dec 2010
28695 posts

re: If you think anyone who's ever played soccer is better than Lionel Messi, you're stupid
quote:

Think about how much has changed in player training and development — maybe just in athleticism alone — between Pele and Messi’s eras and then make your decision.

You have to consider things relative to eras in exercises like this.

For example, Roger Bannister running 3:59 in 1954 in a full mile in 1954 is more impressive than someone running 3:57 today (the world record is 3:43 by Hicham El Guerrouj).

That being said, I believe Messi is the greatest ever even though I am a Ronaldo fanboy.


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