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Started By
Message
re: Why Trumpsigned EO to end birthright citizenship
Posted on 1/22/25 at 8:27 am to the808bass
Posted on 1/22/25 at 8:27 am to the808bass
quote:
Thanks for confirming.
"Caring" means discussing an amendment. I've already explained that path in this very thread.
Doing illegal shite isn't caring.
Posted on 1/22/25 at 8:27 am to SlowFlowPro
That's like saying if I'm a resident of Arizona and I commit a crime in Ohio I'm not "under the jurisdiction" of Ohio.
That's what the people making that argument are saying, yes.
That's what the people making that argument are saying, yes.
quote:So why extradition fights?
See how silly it is?
This post was edited on 1/22/25 at 8:30 am
Posted on 1/22/25 at 8:28 am to VoxDawg
quote:
Indeed.
Glad you're seeing the light.
quote:
Whenever they carry on that the Founders could never imagine modern weaponry, it's usually a good time to remind them that they also couldn't imagine a nation where women could vote, either.
That was done via Amendment.
Posted on 1/22/25 at 8:28 am to SlowFlowPro
quote:
What does that have to do with this issue?
Were Indians granted birthright citizenship before the 14th amendment? Were they directly after the 14th amendment?
Posted on 1/22/25 at 8:29 am to the808bass
quote:
It is legally irrelevant because Chief Justice Gray declared it to be irrelevant.
Along with EVERY court since.
quote:
It is not in dispute that it was their intent.
"Their"?
You're relying on a quote of one person. Certainly you understand plural.
Posted on 1/22/25 at 8:29 am to JBlutarsky
quote:TeamTrump is literally arguing that illegals aren't under the jurisdiction of ANY state.
That's like saying if I'm a resident of Arizona and I commit a crime in Ohio I'm not "under the jurisdiction" of Ohio.
This post was edited on 1/22/25 at 8:30 am
Posted on 1/22/25 at 8:31 am to Jbird
quote:
So why extradition fights?
Not to digress too much, since this is an irrelevant question, but typically that's to see who gets to prosecute first.
However, to get this back into relevancy, in determining if someone is able to be extradited, jurisdiction must be established by the requesting state.
Posted on 1/22/25 at 8:31 am to Taxing Authority
You’ve fallen into the language trap. The term “subject to the jurisdiction” as it is used in the 14th amendment is not a one-to-one correspondent with how you’re using it.
Posted on 1/22/25 at 8:31 am to the808bass
quote:
Were Indians granted birthright citizenship before the 14th amendment? Were they directly after the 14th amendment?
You should have just kept reading
quote:
That wasn't decided by an overruling precedent. WKA specifically discusses that path, which happened decades after the ruling.
There is no conflict.
Posted on 1/22/25 at 8:31 am to SlowFlowPro
quote:Seems like a waste of time.
jurisdiction must be established by the requesting state.
Posted on 1/22/25 at 8:32 am to the808bass
quote:
You’ve fallen into the language trap. T
There is none.
quote:
The term “subject to the jurisdiction” as it is used in the 14th amendment is not a one-to-one correspondent with how you’re using it.
Just because you say so doesn't make this correct.
The text and history are clear. You just reject it b/c you want a different outcome.
Posted on 1/22/25 at 8:32 am to the808bass
Right.
It is worth repeating that despite the certainty some people posting constantly on the internet, SCOTUS has never ruled on the question of whether a person born on U.S. soil to people present in the US without the consent of the US government are citizens under the 14th Amendment.
Plenty of good legal minds think that the 14th Amendment does not apply in such a situation.
For example, Judge Richard Posner:
It is worth repeating that despite the certainty some people posting constantly on the internet, SCOTUS has never ruled on the question of whether a person born on U.S. soil to people present in the US without the consent of the US government are citizens under the 14th Amendment.
Plenty of good legal minds think that the 14th Amendment does not apply in such a situation.
For example, Judge Richard Posner:
quote:
We should not be encouraging foreigners to come to the United States solely to enable them to confer U.S. citizenship on their future children. But the way to stop that abuse of hospitality is to remove the incentive by changing the rule on citizenship, rather than to subject U.S. citizens to the ugly choice to which the Immigration Service is (legally) subjecting these two girls. A constitutional amendment may be required to change the rule whereby birth in this country automatically confers U.S. citizenship, but I doubt it. Peter H. Schuck & Rogers M. Smith, Citizenship Without Consent: Illegal Aliens in the American Polity 116-17 (1985); Dan Stein & John Bauer, “Interpreting the 14th Amendment: Automatic Citizenship for Children of Illegal Immigrants,” 7 Stanford L. & Policy Rev. 127, 130 (1996). The purpose of the rule was to grant citizenship to the recently freed slaves, and the exception for children of foreign diplomats and heads of state shows that Congress does not read the citizenship clause of the Fourteenth Amendment literally. Congress would not be flouting the Constitution if it amended the Immigration and Nationality Act to put an end to the nonsense.
Posted on 1/22/25 at 8:33 am to Jbird
quote:
Seems like a waste of time.
Depends on the crime.
If someone is in because they haven't bonded on a misdemeanor and the requesting state has an arrest warrant for murder, I'm sure it's not a waste to them.
Posted on 1/22/25 at 8:33 am to Taxing Authority
quote:
TeamTrump is literally arguing that illegals aren't under the jurisdiction of ANY state
No they aren't. They're saying that if you're not here legally and have a child that child isn't automatically a citizen.
Posted on 1/22/25 at 8:33 am to SlowFlowPro
quote:
You're relying on a quote of one person.
The one who wrote it? Sure.
And the whole discussion surrounding it. It’s all there if you want to read about it. Congress was worried that this exact result would be the consequence of the amendment. They only allowed the addition of the clause because they were assured that it did not give carte blanche birthright citizenship.
Posted on 1/22/25 at 8:35 am to JimEverett
quote:
SCOTUS has never ruled on the question of whether a person born on U.S. soil to people present in the US without the consent of the US government are citizens under the 14th Amendment.
When the Constitution becomes a living document, this will matter.
quote:
and the exception for children of foreign diplomats and heads of state shows that Congress does not read the citizenship clause of the Fourteenth Amendment literally.
This makes negative sense
That is literally what the literal reading of the text denotes.
Posted on 1/22/25 at 8:35 am to JimEverett
quote:
Judge Richard Posne
Who is Posner? Probably has never even had his picture on a bus bench.
Posted on 1/22/25 at 8:36 am to JBlutarsky
quote:
No they aren't. They're saying that if you're not here legally and have a child that child isn't automatically a citizen.
But how, Given that in order for this argument to work, those people would then not be subject to the jurisdiction of the US?
Posted on 1/22/25 at 8:36 am to SaintsTiger
quote:
Why Trumpsigned EO to end birthright citizenship
Bc it's not the intent of the 14th
Posted on 1/22/25 at 8:36 am to the808bass
quote:
Who is Posner? Probably has never even had his picture on a bus bench.
The devolution continues
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