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re: Why Trumpsigned EO to end birthright citizenship

Posted on 1/22/25 at 8:27 am to
Posted by SlowFlowPro
With populists, expect populism
Member since Jan 2004
466895 posts
Posted on 1/22/25 at 8:27 am to
quote:

Thanks for confirming.


"Caring" means discussing an amendment. I've already explained that path in this very thread.

Doing illegal shite isn't caring.
Posted by Jbird
In Bidenville with EthanL
Member since Oct 2012
84884 posts
Posted on 1/22/25 at 8:27 am to
That's like saying if I'm a resident of Arizona and I commit a crime in Ohio I'm not "under the jurisdiction" of Ohio.


That's what the people making that argument are saying, yes.


quote:


See how silly it is?
So why extradition fights?
This post was edited on 1/22/25 at 8:30 am
Posted by SlowFlowPro
With populists, expect populism
Member since Jan 2004
466895 posts
Posted on 1/22/25 at 8:28 am to
quote:

Indeed.

Glad you're seeing the light.

quote:

Whenever they carry on that the Founders could never imagine modern weaponry, it's usually a good time to remind them that they also couldn't imagine a nation where women could vote, either.

That was done via Amendment.
Posted by the808bass
The Lou
Member since Oct 2012
125550 posts
Posted on 1/22/25 at 8:28 am to
quote:

What does that have to do with this issue?


Were Indians granted birthright citizenship before the 14th amendment? Were they directly after the 14th amendment?
Posted by SlowFlowPro
With populists, expect populism
Member since Jan 2004
466895 posts
Posted on 1/22/25 at 8:29 am to
quote:

It is legally irrelevant because Chief Justice Gray declared it to be irrelevant.


Along with EVERY court since.

quote:

It is not in dispute that it was their intent.

"Their"?

You're relying on a quote of one person. Certainly you understand plural.
Posted by Taxing Authority
Houston
Member since Feb 2010
62607 posts
Posted on 1/22/25 at 8:29 am to
quote:

That's like saying if I'm a resident of Arizona and I commit a crime in Ohio I'm not "under the jurisdiction" of Ohio.
TeamTrump is literally arguing that illegals aren't under the jurisdiction of ANY state.
This post was edited on 1/22/25 at 8:30 am
Posted by SlowFlowPro
With populists, expect populism
Member since Jan 2004
466895 posts
Posted on 1/22/25 at 8:31 am to
quote:

So why extradition fights?


Not to digress too much, since this is an irrelevant question, but typically that's to see who gets to prosecute first.

However, to get this back into relevancy, in determining if someone is able to be extradited, jurisdiction must be established by the requesting state.
Posted by the808bass
The Lou
Member since Oct 2012
125550 posts
Posted on 1/22/25 at 8:31 am to
You’ve fallen into the language trap. The term “subject to the jurisdiction” as it is used in the 14th amendment is not a one-to-one correspondent with how you’re using it.
Posted by SlowFlowPro
With populists, expect populism
Member since Jan 2004
466895 posts
Posted on 1/22/25 at 8:31 am to
quote:

Were Indians granted birthright citizenship before the 14th amendment? Were they directly after the 14th amendment?


You should have just kept reading

quote:

That wasn't decided by an overruling precedent. WKA specifically discusses that path, which happened decades after the ruling.

There is no conflict.
Posted by Jbird
In Bidenville with EthanL
Member since Oct 2012
84884 posts
Posted on 1/22/25 at 8:31 am to
quote:

jurisdiction must be established by the requesting state.
Seems like a waste of time.
Posted by SlowFlowPro
With populists, expect populism
Member since Jan 2004
466895 posts
Posted on 1/22/25 at 8:32 am to
quote:


You’ve fallen into the language trap. T

There is none.

quote:

The term “subject to the jurisdiction” as it is used in the 14th amendment is not a one-to-one correspondent with how you’re using it.


Just because you say so doesn't make this correct.

The text and history are clear. You just reject it b/c you want a different outcome.
Posted by JimEverett
Member since May 2020
1978 posts
Posted on 1/22/25 at 8:32 am to
Right.

It is worth repeating that despite the certainty some people posting constantly on the internet, SCOTUS has never ruled on the question of whether a person born on U.S. soil to people present in the US without the consent of the US government are citizens under the 14th Amendment.
Plenty of good legal minds think that the 14th Amendment does not apply in such a situation.
For example, Judge Richard Posner:

quote:

We should not be encouraging foreigners to come to the United States solely to enable them to confer U.S. citizenship on their future children. But the way to stop that abuse of hospitality is to remove the incentive by changing the rule on citizenship, rather than to subject U.S. citizens to the ugly choice to which the Immigration Service is (legally) subjecting these two girls. A constitutional amendment may be required to change the rule whereby birth in this country automatically confers U.S. citizenship, but I doubt it. Peter H. Schuck & Rogers M. Smith, Citizenship Without Consent: Illegal Aliens in the American Polity 116-17 (1985); Dan Stein & John Bauer, “Interpreting the 14th Amendment: Automatic Citizenship for Children of Illegal Immigrants,” 7 Stanford L. & Policy Rev. 127, 130 (1996). The purpose of the rule was to grant citizenship to the recently freed slaves, and the exception for children of foreign diplomats and heads of state shows that Congress does not read the citizenship clause of the Fourteenth Amendment literally. Congress would not be flouting the Constitution if it amended the Immigration and Nationality Act to put an end to the nonsense.
Posted by SlowFlowPro
With populists, expect populism
Member since Jan 2004
466895 posts
Posted on 1/22/25 at 8:33 am to
quote:

Seems like a waste of time.

Depends on the crime.

If someone is in because they haven't bonded on a misdemeanor and the requesting state has an arrest warrant for murder, I'm sure it's not a waste to them.
Posted by JBlutarsky
Member since Mar 2016
446 posts
Posted on 1/22/25 at 8:33 am to
quote:

TeamTrump is literally arguing that illegals aren't under the jurisdiction of ANY state


No they aren't. They're saying that if you're not here legally and have a child that child isn't automatically a citizen.
Posted by the808bass
The Lou
Member since Oct 2012
125550 posts
Posted on 1/22/25 at 8:33 am to
quote:

You're relying on a quote of one person.


The one who wrote it? Sure.

And the whole discussion surrounding it. It’s all there if you want to read about it. Congress was worried that this exact result would be the consequence of the amendment. They only allowed the addition of the clause because they were assured that it did not give carte blanche birthright citizenship.
Posted by SlowFlowPro
With populists, expect populism
Member since Jan 2004
466895 posts
Posted on 1/22/25 at 8:35 am to
quote:

SCOTUS has never ruled on the question of whether a person born on U.S. soil to people present in the US without the consent of the US government are citizens under the 14th Amendment.


When the Constitution becomes a living document, this will matter.

quote:

and the exception for children of foreign diplomats and heads of state shows that Congress does not read the citizenship clause of the Fourteenth Amendment literally.

This makes negative sense

That is literally what the literal reading of the text denotes.
Posted by the808bass
The Lou
Member since Oct 2012
125550 posts
Posted on 1/22/25 at 8:35 am to
quote:

Judge Richard Posne


Who is Posner? Probably has never even had his picture on a bus bench.
Posted by SlowFlowPro
With populists, expect populism
Member since Jan 2004
466895 posts
Posted on 1/22/25 at 8:36 am to
quote:

No they aren't. They're saying that if you're not here legally and have a child that child isn't automatically a citizen.


But how, Given that in order for this argument to work, those people would then not be subject to the jurisdiction of the US?
Posted by Wtodd
Tampa, FL
Member since Oct 2013
68474 posts
Posted on 1/22/25 at 8:36 am to
quote:

Why Trumpsigned EO to end birthright citizenship

Bc it's not the intent of the 14th
Posted by SlowFlowPro
With populists, expect populism
Member since Jan 2004
466895 posts
Posted on 1/22/25 at 8:36 am to
quote:

Who is Posner? Probably has never even had his picture on a bus bench.

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