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re: Why does it seem like liberalism always wins in the end?
Posted on 1/12/14 at 9:56 am to Draconian Sanctions
Posted on 1/12/14 at 9:56 am to Draconian Sanctions
quote:
wrong again
No, I'm right.
There, now I'm using the Draconian Sanctions method of refutation.
1
Posted on 1/12/14 at 9:57 am to Draconian Sanctions
quote:
I'm not going to sit here and write a novel to explain why your perceptions are wrong right now.
Posted on 1/12/14 at 9:57 am to Zach
quote:
Definitions
who's definition? Glen Beck's?
quote:
I didn't say that
no but it was definitely implied. Sort of like if I talk about Alabama fans and mention harvey Updyke, I'm associating the two in a way that implies Harvey is the norm for that fan base.
Posted on 1/12/14 at 9:58 am to Hooligan's Ghost
quote:
Conservatives want to end the status quo; radically. They want big change. They want to end the generational dependency on the welfare state.
Conservatives believe that the more self sufficient the populace is, the better off the country is.
Conservatives actually believe that taxing a dollar from someone, sending it to Washington, having it siphoned off at every level of bureaucracy and then sending it back down to his neighbor (deserving or not) to be siphoned off some more on the way down and now by the state governments too sometimes, is a terribly inefficient way to do...anything, but that is the system that Democrats, especially Liberals wholeheartedly endorse and worship.
And if you want to criticize Conservatives on social issues; for defending rights of the unborn, but not snail darter rights and tree rights,ok. And if you want to criticize Conservatives because they promote traditional families (horrors), fine.
There is no good defense of the increasing dependency on government and the advocacy thereof by liberals, which brings us back to the original point, why does this side win?
Great fricking post!
Posted on 1/12/14 at 9:58 am to Draconian Sanctions
quote:
it sounds like you've bought the right wing's spin, which is fine. I'm not going to sit here and write a novel to explain why your perceptions are wrong right now.
I actually disagree with him. I don't think any social programs funded by govt should exist. If people starve to death I really don't care. Hunger can be a great motivator.
Posted on 1/12/14 at 9:59 am to FightinTigersDammit
quote:
There is no good defense of the increasing dependency on government and the advocacy thereof by liberals
you people
Posted on 1/12/14 at 10:00 am to Zach
quote:
I don't think any social programs funded by govt should exist. If people starve to death I really don't care. Hunger can be a great motivator.
At least you're upfront about it
I completely disagree and think that your position is irresponsible and immoral/unethical, but at least you're not a hypocrite.Posted on 1/12/14 at 10:02 am to Zach
quote:
No, I'm right.
There, now I'm using the Draconian Sanctions method of refutation.
I mean saying that libertarianism is a subset of conservatism is just factually inaccurate. It's the political equivalent of saying 2+2=3
Posted on 1/12/14 at 10:02 am to Draconian Sanctions
quote:
who's definition? Glen Beck's?
It's a standard definition shared by conservative writers...like Walter Williams, W.F. Buckley, Thomas Sowell, etc. I don't listen to Glen Beck but he might use the same definition.
quote:
no but it was definitely implied.
No, it was not. Let's see if an analogy might penetrate. All football players are athletes but not all athletes are football players.
All communists are leftists. But not all leftists are communist. Are you beginning to understand?
Posted on 1/12/14 at 10:04 am to Zach
quote:
It's a standard definition shared by conservative writers
oh okay, because that's so much better
quote:
Are you beginning to understand?
I understand that you're trying to spin your way out of what you were doing
Posted on 1/12/14 at 10:05 am to Draconian Sanctions
quote:
I mean saying that libertarianism is a subset of conservatism is just factually inaccurate
It's accurate. You just can't wrap your brain around it. Libertarians believe that the only valid function of govt is to promote individual liberty. They believe in minimal taxation; no redistribution of wealth for social purposes; no nanny state limitations on individual freedom (think NYC's Mayor Bloomberg). These are conservative principles.
Posted on 1/12/14 at 10:06 am to Draconian Sanctions
quote:
oh okay, because that's so much better
Soooo, the definition of conservative should come from liberal writers?
Posted on 1/12/14 at 10:07 am to Zach
quote:
You just can't wrap your brain around it
okay #1 you're the one that seems to want to keep everything as a part of the classical left-right sliding scale of political philosophies. Libertarianism doesn't fit in that sclae
#2 Even if we did decide to dumb things down for the sake of a message board discussion, modern libertarianism takes just as much from social liberalism as it does from fiscal conservatism.
Posted on 1/12/14 at 10:09 am to Zach
quote:
Soooo, the definition of conservative should come from liberal writers?
we were talking about your silly arse definition of liberalism Posted on 1/12/14 at 10:12 am to Draconian Sanctions
quote:
okay #1 you're the one that seems to want to keep everything as a part of the classical left-right sliding scale of political philosophies. Libertarianism doesn't fit in that sclae
Yes it does. And for purposes of visualization I wouldn't call it a scale. I'd call it a continuum. Think of a horizontal line. On the left side of the line are those philosophies which advocate strong central planning by govt and egalitarianism. On the extreme left you have communism or any oppressive dictatorship. The best example would be North Korea. As you move toward the center you have various stages of liberalism.
On the right side of the line you have those philosophies which advocate for limited govt; individual freedom and responsibility for your own state in life as opposed to looking to govt for help. At the extreme end of the right you have anarchy. Libertarianism is on the right side of this line.
Posted on 1/12/14 at 10:12 am to HailHailtoMichigan!
quote:
Why does it seem like liberalism always wins in the end?
The CRUX of the whole Liberal vs. Conservative rest on a single idea: and that concept is that society will be more moral and prosperous if the State/Collective IMPOSES economic equality on all individuals and guarantees all the basics of life. No qualifiers.
The belief/assumption is that a lot of personal psychological ills (inferiority complex, envy, competition/disunity, need-based desperation and crime, ambivalence/apathy toward a government that leaves the weak out of the prosperity equation, etc., etc.)...will be cured by leveling the affluence playing ground. Of course...those who run that extremely complex and coercive State Mechanism...lap up the affluence cream.
Being that you "don't muzzle the ox that treads the corn". The above concept could work...and most likely will in the future. For a guarantee of the basics of life. But not without QUALIFIERS in the form of both a personal and civic moral commitment to "ask not what your country can do for you, but what you can do for your country". Without that commitment, the subsidization of immorality/personal irresponsibility is an existential suicide pact. "Behold, there is a way that seemeth right unto man, but the end thereof is destruction" (Biblical).
Live and learn.
PS. I'm headin to see "Lone Survivor". Now that the public will know, and Marcus will be rich, and Beck has a bully pulpit...maybe the POS Obama can be coerced into bringing that Muslim dude and his family over here, before the Islamist cut of their heads...upon seeing this movie. Of course, Obama lets the dude that helped get bin Laden rot in a Pakistani prison...so...!
Earth 2014
Posted on 1/12/14 at 10:14 am to Draconian Sanctions
quote:
it sounds like you've bought the right wing's spin, which is fine. I'm not going to sit here and write a novel to explain why your perceptions are wrong right now.
I haven't bought anybody's spin. I simply believe the government is bloated and ineffective at most everything it does. If there must be entitlement programs they should be provided by the states, not the FedGov. Washington is full of ideologues on both sides. Most of whom have several degrees but no experience in anything real world, whether it be business or social services or law enforcement or what have you. Why should money go into a big pot just to get doled out to people in another state than mine. I don't really GAF about the people in California. They can take care of themselves. And yes, I know LA probably takes more in than they give out so don't go there. Why should my tax dollars be taken to support people who can't take care of themselves. I don't make a lot of money as it is but yet I manage to provide a decent life for my family and save for retirement and have health and life insurance. If people don't do that for themselves then quite frankly I couldn't care less about them. I realize that sometimes people fall on hard times and may need some help. That's fine, I don't think we should let them starve or die of the elements, but why do I have to provide them years of unemployment, welfare, and retirement in the form of SS?
Posted on 1/12/14 at 10:15 am to Zach
quote:
Think of a horizontal line
again you keep falling back into these oversimplifications. It makes having a conversation with you about this stuff really difficult because it just doesn't work that way. Stop thinking two dimensionally and we'll talk again.
Posted on 1/12/14 at 10:16 am to Draconian Sanctions
quote:
we were talking about your silly arse definition of liberalism
The definitions of both terms go hand in hand. The leftness/rightness of an ideology is based on the person's view of govt vs. the individual.
The value system guiding liberalism is egalitarianism. If that confuses you think of 'social justice'. Life isn't fair and only govt intervention can make life more fair.
The value system guiding conservatism is liberty. They believe that people are by nature unequal and govt trying to make things fair = a diminishing of individual liberty/property.
Posted on 1/12/14 at 10:18 am to GeauxxxTigers23
quote:
I haven't bought anybody's spin. I simply believe the government is bloated and ineffective at most everything it does. If there must be entitlement programs they should be provided by the states, not the FedGov. Washington is full of ideologues on both sides. Most of whom have several degrees but no experience in anything real world, whether it be business or social services or law enforcement or what have you. Why should money go into a big pot just to get doled out to people in another state than mine. I don't really GAF about the people in California. They can take care of themselves. And yes, I know LA probably takes more in than they give out so don't go there. Why should my tax dollars be taken to support people who can't take care of themselves. I don't make a lot of money as it is but yet I manage to provide a decent life for my family and save for retirement and have health and life insurance. If people don't do that for themselves then quite frankly I couldn't care less about them. I realize that sometimes people fall on hard times and may need some help. That's fine, I don't think we should let them starve or die of the elements, but why do I have to provide them years of unemployment, welfare, and retirement in the form of SS?
Again, just like Zach, I think your position is largely irresponsible and immoral. That's not to say that things couldn't be done better, that waste could be eliminated and programs tinkered so that people can't take advantage. But you lose me with the rest of it. We're just going to have to agree to disagree.
This post was edited on 1/12/14 at 10:19 am
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