re: What is the source of our rights?

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It ends up in the same discussion because they are essentially the same concept. Rights are based on justice, which is an underpinning of all morality.

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And I argue both are created via societal trial and error, not a deity (although early on governments understood to use religion to reinforce these concepts)

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Define "failing" in that context.

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You framed it as failing, not me. That's your job.

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You're going to have a hard time without dipping into justice.

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"Justice" isn't needed at all, actually. Efficiency and logical allocation of resources are all you need to make the argument.

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Why exactly was chattel slavery a "failing?" Why was women not voting a "failing?"

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You're conflating discussions here, if you're trying to revert back to my referencing.

I did not reference them as "failings" (to use your term-framing). I referenced them as a contradiction for the argument that rights come from a god, or, to be hyper-specific, as a contradiction for the men who argued these rights come from a god (who were being referenced prior to my comments, to maintain proper context).

Sure I feel they are a failing, but for purposes of rhetorical and logical clarity, we have to note your conflation.

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That argument also means that you have to concede that if the wind changed back tomorrow and the majority favored taking the vote away from women again or enslaving people again, that wouldn't be a "failing" either. It wouldn't be good or bad, right or wrong, just a democratic, collective change of preference.

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You're arguing against yourself. This "failing" framing is YOUR framing.

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What is dishonest about it?

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Post the entire quote and you'll have your answer.

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You're pivoting the dishonest framing into individual-individual interactions now

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You just hit dishonesty squared

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No, they don't—and even of they did, why would that be "sad?"

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Are you actually asking me to explain why it is sad that a person who beats me up and rapes my wife doesn't have the same socialization as me? Or are you being obtuse to try to sound profound?

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Every society has things that they consider to be right and wrong. They may not be the same things that you think, but the entire basis of your argument is that none of that is real, it's just whatever people collectively think it is.

So in the Middle East where they throw gays off buildings and women don't have equal rights, there's nothing wrong with that. It's just what they collectively either vote for or allow. There's nothing "sad" about it unless you are just describing your own subjective feelings about it that need not apply to anyone else.

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No I consider it wrong based on a rational analysis. I just have the luxury of being able to do this myself, without religion added in. Some people need religion or the threat of some other force to agree. I don't because I can see the societal issues caused by both pathologies in the great societal trial and error.

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Again, this is standard atheist/moral relativist stuff that's been debunked with simple logic a gazillion times. I understand that no matter how clear it is that it is self-refuting you will not admit it, because the point of it is be your own god, a desire which logic and reason cannot shake.

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The implication is that morality requires, what, exactly?

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I therefore will likely not respond henceforth unless you come up with something new to say (or if you actually answer the "dishonest" claim with something particulalry egregious.

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Don't fuss about the evolution of expectations of women when women were the ones demanding more expectations since the 50's.

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"Help, I got exactly what I asked for!"

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It costs someone or for profit prisons wouldn't be a thing.

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Tax payers.

This is why prisons should be tent cities.

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You didn't comprehend that I was questioning the validity of the premise that capturing female crabs is more detrimental to the crab population than capturing male crabs.

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I wouldn't know. I do know that we used to release the females when they were carrying eggs.

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My friend was given these crabs as part of some barter. He told me the details but it would be pedantic to recount them here.

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Your friend was talking out of his arse, probably to impress you or someone else at the party or just to try and sound smart. Unless, they hand caught the crabs and were the assholes that only keep the females, then he was lying and being kind of a douche.

ETA: Also, your friend would be in a shitload of trouble if all he did was come back with female crabs on shore. Most of which would have eggs attached. Thats why we have a department of fish and wildlife. To stop assholes like your friend.

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"Help, I got exactly what I asked for!"

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Which is astoundingly a recurring cry from these ""educated, sophisticated, compassionate, and proooogggrreeesssive people".

"Let them steal! They need the items! The store belongs to a corporation!" Then, "We now have to go so much farther for basic goods!! This is terrible!! We used to have everything we need right here!"

"We have to reform healthcare! Get this bill passed!!! It says "affordable" in the name! What else do you need!" Then "Healthcare is sooo unaffordable!! Insurance is so expensive!!"

"We have to allow these poor immigrants to stay! Who will pick our fruits?!?" Then "OMG my friend was raped and killed! How did this happen?!?"

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The implication is that morality requires, what, exactly?

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A calibrating standard.

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ETA: Also, your friend would be in a shitload of trouble if all he did was come back with female crabs on shore. Most of which would have eggs attached. Thats why we have a department of fish and wildlife. To stop assholes like your friend.

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I have never been crabbing, but is there a precaution crabbers take to ensure only male crabs enter the traps? Or to dissuade female crabs from going in the traps?

My friend got the crabs from "a guy." The guy told my friend that most of the crabs were female was my understanding. I brought some to the custodian at work this morning because she loves crabs. She has a crab guy too that I've bought crabs from before. Anyway, my friend gave me a bunch to take home Saturday night and I brought some to her. She cleaned some in front of me earlier (I asked her for a tutorial). The first one she opened was a male because she pointed out the testes. It's not like all the crabs were female.

This is way more detail than I ever anticipated providing about these crabs.

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I imagine he'll say some kind of god/religion, but he also rage quit

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Present day, I am trying and I cannot think of one major nation that does not use god or religion as the calibrating standard.

If reincarnation is real, maybe we revisit this in a few lifetimes.