re: What is the source of our rights?

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Everyone: *Having fun at a crab boil*

4chubby: Did you know females are superior to males across species?"

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Everyone laughed. It wasn't that serious.

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The most unbelievable part of this is that someone invited you to a crab boil. Doubt they'd make that mistake again.

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This is how I know this place is really full of misfits and rejects. I make friends everywhere I go.

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Everyone laughed

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And clapped, right?

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You sure about that? I went crabbing with some friends once. We made sure to release the females that we caught. You know, so the population thrives. Now i'm not a professional crab fisherman, but....i would think there are some standards they have regarding ensuring they don't deplete the population their income survives on.

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Crabs don't reproduce asexually, do they?

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How was it? A friend of mine from high school is the daughter of Croatian immigrants. They lived in Audubon Place though, not the stank bank. Algiers really shouldn't be considered "the city proper" anyway

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It was good. I had some pretty good oyster pasta and the wife had smoked sardines. The sardines were much different than what you get in Croatia. Over there it is like eating fish chips...bones and all.

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This question can be reframed as "What do men expect from men and women?"

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Do not agree. Women's viewpoints were readily heard. Women do make up more than half of our society and do fill a neccessary role.

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When we say "society," we really mean the people with the power to influence society.

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We don't have to stay at a macro level. Society can be community, neighborhood or even family.

Across all levels, expectations for men run the same - protection, security, manual labor, financial support, etc.

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Society expects everything from women. These expectations are often competing and conflicting

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Men put expectations on each other.

Women do the same? If expectations for men are the same, across boundries, why is it different for women? One cannot agrue that it isn't. So where did this come from? This is where the wife and I were stumped.

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Crabs don't reproduce asexually, do they?

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No, they do not. And FYI, i know your comment was tongue in cheek (at least i hope it was), however, in nature, typically the male species is the brightest, most colorful, strongest and more showy than females. Nature does this to ensure survival of the species.

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a female poster who has met hundreds of posters.

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misplaced modifier.

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"Moral grounding" ends up in the same discussion being had about rights, FWIW, because morality was also created via societal trial and error over time and has developed parallel to the concept of rights as we continue that trial and error methodology as society advances.

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Nope.

It ends up in the same discussion because they are essentially the same concept. Rights are based on justice, which is an underpinning of all morality.

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That's not exactly true, unless you create a dishonest framing either for how to define the concepts or how a person can discuss the concepts

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You mean like you just did above?

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That's why our system was designed as a democracy to let the people respond to these failings of the governments they elect

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Define "failing" in that context. You're going to have a hard time without dipping into justice.

Why exactly was chattel slavery a "failing?" Why was women not voting a "failing?" I can make a pretty strong case that if all you're looking at is the utility of those circumstances and ignoring the morality of them, you're going to have a hard time explaining why those were "failings."

And if you go with the majority argument, then they still weren't "failings," they were simply changes. Not better, not worse. The wind just blew a different direction.

That argument also means that you have to concede that if the wind changed back tomorrow and the majority favored taking the vote away from women again or enslaving people again, that wouldn't be a "failing" either. It wouldn't be good or bad, right or wrong, just a democratic, collective change of preference.

And finally, that argument held consistently puts you in the position of having to view slavery abolitionists who favored abolishing slavery before 1865 as being "anti-rights," as they wanted to violate the democratically, socially established rights of slave owners.

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You're pivoting the dishonest framing

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What is dishonest about it? You don't like the consequences of following your logic to a conclusion—I get that—but what is the "dishonest" part?

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People who are socialized by societies who haven't been on this path do "live that way", sadly.

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No, they don't—and even of they did, why would that be "sad?" You keep trying to smuggle in morality despite yourself.

Every society has things that they consider to be right and wrong. They may not be the same things that you think, but the entire basis of your argument is that none of that is real, it's just whatever people collectively think it is.

So in the Middle East where they throw gays off buildings and women don't have equal rights, there's nothing wrong with that. It's just what they collectively either vote for or allow. There's nothing "sad" about it unless you are just describing your own subjective feelings about it that need not apply to anyone else.

If there is something really objectively "sad" about it, that means you are appealing to some standard above what you claim you are grounding all of this in, which is just collective opinion.

Again, this is standard atheist/moral relativist stuff that's been debunked with simple logic a gazillion times. I understand that no matter how clear it is that it is self-refuting you will not admit it, because the point of it is be your own god, a desire which logic and reason cannot shake.

I therefore will likely not respond henceforth unless you come up with something new to say (or if you actually answer the "dishonest" claim with something particulalry egregious.

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If expectations for men are the same, across boundries, why is it different for women? One cannot agrue that it isn't. So where did this come from? This is where the wife and I were stumped.

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The expectations for women have evolved (and exapanded) while the expectations for men have not.

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Commissary, prison phone calls, private prison contracts, prison labor...

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Now show me the actual numbers where the state makes money from mass incarceration. Actual numbers.

And what are we doing with all of this supposed revenue?

Because if you think phone calls and candy bars in the commissary is an excess revenue over housing a felon for years... then I'm just at an absolute loss.

Oh and still waiting on that explanation of the cratering of the homicide rate in El Salvador.

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That argument also means that you have to concede that if the wind changed back tomorrow...

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Being that we are biological beings with needs and wants and who can feel pain, do you think that, as a whole, we tend to prefer certain outcomes from the way the wind blows?

Like, the amount of people who want the wind to blow us towards a mad max post apocalypse world are very few?