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Started By
Message
2
Posted on 3/30/26 at 6:42 am to 4cubbies
quote:
This reminds me of my much more provocative thread Were the founders full of shite?
Nah, they were not full of shite. They were just men, doing what only men have been able to do since the dawn of humanity. They were building a civilization and creating the laws for that civilization.
Were they flawed? Yes
Were they better than anything that ever came before? Also yes.
Posted on 3/30/26 at 6:44 am to 4cubbies
quote:
Rights are social constructs.
Rights are fluid
Almost everything is social constructs. It is those constructs that keep us civilized.
Posted on 3/30/26 at 6:55 am to UtahCajun
quote:
It is those constructs that keep us civilized.
I think we need new social constructs.
Anyway the board thinks laws and prison are what keeps people civilized.
Everyone is just trying to live with themselves.
This post was edited on 3/30/26 at 6:57 am
Posted on 3/30/26 at 7:05 am to 4cubbies
quote:
I think we need new social constructs.
Anyway the board thinks laws and prison are what keeps people civilized
Most of our constructs have served us well for approx 10,000 years.
Laws, which are a needed for civilization to function - spring from the moral of the majority and most seem to be universal. They are not here to keep us civilized. They are only here to both met out justice and generate revenue. It is the second part that is the problem, not the first.
Prison is also something that has been around for approx 10,000 years. At least we got rid of debtors prison, but for the most part, it seems to have served us well. All civilizations have them. Ours is not the best, but it is much less bureaucratic than almost all. There are many, many reasons why our inmate population is swollen as compared to most.
But, in the grand scheme of time, we are just a blink of an eye away from drawing on cave walls with chalk. I hope you do not expect us to be more civilized or perfect than we currently are.
Posted on 3/30/26 at 7:07 am to 4cubbies
quote:
Anyway the board thinks laws and prison are what keeps people civilized.
quote:
I think we need new social constructs.
What if people don't like your new social constructs? If one of your constructs is "men shouldn't rape women", what do you do when they ignore that and rape women?
Posted on 3/30/26 at 7:12 am to Flats
quote:
What if people don't like your new social constructs? If one of your constructs is "men shouldn't rape women", what do you do when they ignore that and rape women?
Isn't the idea that men should not rape women universally agreed upon in western society?
Posted on 3/30/26 at 7:15 am to Mike da Tigah
The source of our rights are usually granted by:
A high trust society.
Copious amounts of guns and the will to use them.
A high trust society.
Copious amounts of guns and the will to use them.
Posted on 3/30/26 at 7:20 am to UtahCajun
quote:
Isn't the idea that men should not rape women universally agreed upon in western society?
Obviously not, because rapes still happen.
She doesn't seem to want laws or prisons, so I'm just wondering what she does with the people who don't like her social constructs and ignore them.
Posted on 3/30/26 at 7:38 am to Flats
quote:
Obviously not, because rapes still happen
Mostly by people who did not originate from western society.
quote:
She doesn't seem to want laws or prisons, so I'm just wondering what she does with the people who don't like her social constructs and ignore them
It's the whole "all men are created equally" thing that many do not understand.
All men are most definitely not created equal. This country suffers because we have many here who are not able to live in a western society. We see the same things happening in other western countries now that they are allowing multiculturalism. Not all cultures are equal or mixable.
Posted on 3/30/26 at 7:39 am to 50_Tiger
quote:
A high trust society.
Copious amounts of guns and the will to use them.
Truth...only until we have lazer guns. I really want lazer guns
Posted on 3/30/26 at 8:13 am to Wednesday
quote:
Here’s a start
Life, Liberty and the pursuit of happiness
What do these things mean in practical terms, and how did this work the first 100 (really almost 200) years of our country when it's very difficult to argue those existed in the US?
quote:
If you don’t believe we are endowed by our Creator with our rights, then you’re unamerican AF
That's dumb. Really dumb.
Posted on 3/30/26 at 8:15 am to wackatimesthree
quote:
It provides an objective logical basis for the existence of the right.
I don't think relying on a god to determine the concept of rights is either objective or logical, and that's the problem with the argument.
quote:
If I have God given rights I can be deprived of them with a gun.
If I don't have God given rights I can be deprived of them with simple logic. No gun necessary.
Well now we're back to page 1
quote:
What is a right?
Who/what defines what a right is?
What is the comprehensive list of rights?
What erodes those concepts we reference as "rights"?
Posted on 3/30/26 at 8:19 am to Roll Tide Ravens
quote:
Just because terrible mistakes were made in those days doesn’t mean that they overall idea that we are born with certain God given rights is false.
I mean the people who authored those words, the ones you're relying on to justify your side, disagree with you (via their actions).
It's quite the cop out to use the fluttery language to justify your opinion and then pivot to "terrible mistakes made" by the very people who created that language. If they didn't believe in their words, why should anyone give such deference to them?
quote:
Even if you don’t believe in God, I think it can still be agreed upon that humans are born with some basic rights.
That depends on how you answer these questions
quote:
What is a right?
Who/what defines what a right is?
What is the comprehensive list of rights?
What erodes those concepts we reference as "rights"?
I, being a highly intelligent person raised in the West, in the most developed and advanced culture in human history, who values freedom extremely highly, has a personal belief about rights that most people on Earth, who lack the gifts and socialization I was lucky to be given (through no effort of my own, mind you).
quote:
Sometimes governments and other people infringe upon these basic rights.
Then that brings us right back to this:
quote:
What is a right?
Who/what defines what a right is?
What is the comprehensive list of rights?
What erodes those concepts we reference as "rights"?
Posted on 3/30/26 at 8:20 am to UtahCajun
quote:
No. Rights do not come from God. Rights do not come from government. The idea of rights come from man.
Correct.
Posted on 3/30/26 at 8:20 am to UtahCajun
quote:
They are only here to both met out justice and generate revenue. It is the second part that is the problem, not the first.
Justice and revenue are intertwined in this country. That’s obviously problematic.
quote:
. I hope you do not expect us to be more civilized or perfect than we currently are.
Of course I do.
Posted on 3/30/26 at 8:21 am to SlowFlowPro
If a right is something that cannot be taken away then the only right we have is the right to think what we want.
Posted on 3/30/26 at 8:23 am to 4cubbies
quote:
Of course I do.
Hahaha
Sit down please because I have some very distressing news for you....
Posted on 3/30/26 at 8:24 am to Judnnc
quote:
If a right is something that cannot be taken away then the only right we have is the right to think what we want.
Even that can be taken away from you.
This spans from people in cults (especially if they were born into one) to our current state of technology and society (where they have basically figured out algorithms to make you like/want/view stuff, from songs to videos to consumer products).
Posted on 3/30/26 at 8:46 am to Flats
quote:
She doesn't seem to want laws or prisons
Why would you say this? Understanding that laws are not proactive and only serve to ensure punishment doesn't mean that I want to get rid of all laws.
Prisons need to be reimagined to make the instruments of justice and social good, not just instruments to inflict maximum trauma.
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