re: What is the income range for "middle class" per the board?

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If someone making $400K/yr is living paycheck to paycheck, that doesn't make them middle class. It makes them stupid.

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I get that. I'm just saying - doctors are a common example - often they come from solidly middle class families, but they also come from professional families that are upper middle class.

Kid goes to a good school - leaves undergrad with a little debt, but then stacks up a shite ton in medical school - so, now he's done with school and he gets through his internship and residency (which is not lucrative on payday) - so, now he's damned near 30, holding maybe a quarter million in debt and, let's say he picked a good, but not great, specialty for income, say pathology - so, he's sitting at $200k or so, on his way to $300k by his mid 30s. That guy is either going to overbuy on a house (he's starting a family now or soon, for sure) OR throw money at his student loans.

Either way, he's living paycheck to paycheck and he's "rich" when you ask the average, non-professional American. Yeah, those student loans will be gone by the time he's 40, but if he hasn't put off starting a family and hasn't lived like a monk for 10 years, he hasn't started saving for retirement - at least not in earnest yet.

And he's paying private schools. I'm not saying he isn't living well. I'm saying he isn't "rich" - he has to show up for work every day and he better be in a damned good mood about it, because he's not "rich" for another 10 years.

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Nah "100K is not the bottom rung of Middle Class income"

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Bottom rung in the late 70's was 60K

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Median income in the U.S. was about $16500 in 1979, baw. Median. So, you're saying you have to be almost 4x the median to be the "bottom" rung of middle class?

Good to know.

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What I am saying is Middle Class Values of society are one thing and Middle Income money is another. Yes I think my figures are correct but I think people confuse Middle Class Values with Middle Income.

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You're completely nuts

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And stupid me I thought we were having a discussion. Have a great Day!

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ou can't support that $60k a year is the "bottom rung" of middle class at any point in the 1970s

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It is what I was taught in Tulane, in Graduate School, in an Economics class in the late 70's. Did I pursue the information further than that, no. Was I surprised, hell yes.

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It is what I was taught in Tulane, in Graduate School, in an Economics class in the late 70's.

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I can't say for certain, but I may have discovered the problem.

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Was I surprised, hell yes.

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And you weren't skeptical?

Let's break it down to certain "markers" - let's take the raw dollars out of it for a second. What are the markers of "middle" class in the U.S. in the post-war (WWII for those of you in Rio Linda) era of the U.S.

This was the period of the growth of suburbs. So, taking out the families who lived in apartments in the big cities, markers of the middle class:

1. Family lives in a detached, single-family home that is being purchased via a mortgage rather than rent (middle class folks rent for a whole variety of good reasons, but this marker should be the default).

2. Head of household has a steady job, either industry, service or government, or else owns/operates his own business. The closer to the war, the less likely the matriarch is to work. The closer to the present, the more likely she is to work, all other things being equal.

3. The family owns one or more automobiles that are used as primary transportation for work, shopping and leisure (again, this may exclude some apartment dwelling middle class folks in the cities), as opposed to relying on public transportation.

4. The family has at least a modest surplus discretionary income to purchase things such as televisions (ultimately cable service), modern appliances, family vacations, etc.


And there were folks with all of these factors with family incomes in the upper teens, lower twenties income even as late as 1979.

That's my rebuttal to what you were taught at Tulane.

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Taking it to the extreme, even after making millions, a large percentage of professional athletes live paycheck-to-paycheck. They then border on bankruptcy a few years into retirement.

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Indeed. One simply cannot equate income to quality of life. I know broke millionaires. And I know “poor” people that will never have to worry about money. Seems to me the latter are a lot less stressed and happier.

Feeling “rich” is more about being content with what you have—rather than counting how much your neighbors’ have. .

I stand corrected, I think it was 40K was the bottom rung, as they taught it and 60K was probably the top rung

Still I was amazed

Depends on situation really. There isn't a set income.

I define it as making enough to rent/own a decent house in a safe neighborhood and own a reliable car, and have enough left for a few luxuries or vacations or savings.

For example for a single individual it's probably 40-75k a year. For a family of 4 I would say 75k-175k.

A family of 4 making combined income of 50k isn't middle class. They likely live paycheck to paycheck and have little set aside for emergencies unless they sacrifice A LOT of common luxuries such as cell phones, cable, etc. they aren't poor either, just "working class".

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there must have been drugs involved.

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WEll they may well have been, none for me though. I think you guys are right, I had bad info.