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re: The US govt has lost the right to forcibly tax us.
Posted on 1/1/26 at 6:39 pm to FooManChoo
Posted on 1/1/26 at 6:39 pm to FooManChoo
I agree that Christians are required to be good citizens, but also have a question for you, were the American colonies justified in the American Revolution? The main cause of the war was taxation.
1
Posted on 1/1/26 at 6:40 pm to FooManChoo
quote:
Christians are still under obligation by God to pay taxes to governments that require them. Mismanagement and even immoral uses of tax dollars don’t get us off the hook.
So weird
Posted on 1/1/26 at 6:52 pm to Reagan80
quote:Well, it wasn't just taxation on its own, like the amount was just too high. It was the lack of representation in Parliament. They weren't getting the benefits that go along with voting representation but they still had to pay the cost of affiliation with England. I believe the colonists were paying much less in taxes per year than the average citizen in England, but the true concern was that they had to pay taxes to a government across the ocean without representation.
I agree that Christians are required to be good citizens, but also have a question for you, were the American colonies justified in the American Revolution? The main cause of the war was taxation.
In regards to the justification for the war: I'd say, sort of? If the lesser magistrates (governors, for instance) wanted to break away from the Empire for the sake of their subjects, they could do that lawfully in upholding their offices to the people. Eventually the lesser magistrates got on board which legitimized the revolution.
Having a bunch of citizens rebelling against the government and seeking to overthrow it is unlawful according to the teachings of the New Testament, at least.
Posted on 1/1/26 at 7:01 pm to FooManChoo
quote:
Taxes? Yes. The principle applies.
Assume they pay their taxes according to the principle. Given that, did the Jewish people have a moral right to arm themselves and violently kill and overthrow their Nazi Government?
Posted on 1/1/26 at 7:11 pm to Champagne
quote:They could have defended themselves, yes. Self-defense is a legal and moral right.
Assume they pay their taxes according to the principle. Given that, did the Jewish people have a moral right to arm themselves and violently kill and overthrow their Nazi Government?
Posted on 1/1/26 at 7:13 pm to sumtimeitbeslikedat
The Republicans have been just as responsible for mismanaging America’s finances…
Posted on 1/1/26 at 7:48 pm to Champagne
quote:
Assume they pay their taxes according to the principle. Given that, did the Jewish people have a moral right to arm themselves and violently kill and overthrow their Nazi Government?
Any time this discussion arises, it just is a matter of time before Goodwin’s Law is breached; yet it is a valid rhetorical question. And it brings to mind a piquant observation about the nature of the modern state from C.S. Lewis:
“The modern State exists not to protect our rights but to make us good — anyway, to do something to us or to make us something. Hence the new name ‘leaders’ for those who were once ‘rulers’. We are less their subjects than their wards, pupils or domestic animals. There is nothing left of which we can say to them, ‘Mind your own business.’ Our whole lives are their business.
….
Again, the new oligarchy must more and more base its claim to plan us on its claim to knowledge. If we are to be mothered, mother must know best. This means they must increasingly rely on the advice of scientists, till in the end the politicians proper become merely the scientists' puppets. Technocracy is the form to which a planned society must tend. Now I dread specialists in power because they are specialists speaking outside their special subjects. Let scientists tell us about sciences. But government involves questions about the good for man, and justice, and what things are worth having at what price; and on these a scientific training gives a man's opinion no added value...” Willing Slaves of the Welfare State: C. S. Lewis
The point here is the authoritarian tendencies of the modern managerial state poses a great threat to genuine religious expression since it inherently seeks to regulate our natural rights. Don’t forget that the greatest assault to religious freedom in this country occurred during the COVID-1984 pandemic.
Posted on 1/1/26 at 7:51 pm to Toomer Deplorable
Posted on 1/1/26 at 7:53 pm to FooManChoo
quote:
They could have defended themselves, yes. Self-defense is a legal and moral right.
As long as they dutifully paid their taxes.
Posted on 1/1/26 at 7:59 pm to Kjnstkmn
quote:
Americans struggling give their last bit to taxes, knowing if they don’t their lives will be made miserable by the IRS
Then, rather than protecting those funds, it goes to scam daycares, fake NGOs, and to fund illegals insurance.
Mamdani says “hold my beer!”
Posted on 1/1/26 at 8:24 pm to Toomer Deplorable
Posted on 1/1/26 at 8:49 pm to FooManChoo
quote:
In regards to the justification for the war: I'd say, sort of? If the lesser magistrates (governors, for instance) wanted to break away from the Empire for the sake of their subjects, they could do that lawfully in upholding their offices to the people. Eventually the lesser magistrates got on board which legitimized the revolution.
Colonists such as Patrick Henry — a devout Christian— would disagree. The increasingly oppressive measures from the Britain Crown were increasingly viewed as a gross violation of the colonist’s natural rights, prompting a grassroots movement that went beyond the authority of any magistrate.
Henry understood that sometimes moral imperatives necessitate drastic action outside of established authority. As indicated in Henry’s famous “Give Me Liberty Or Give Me Death” speech, the legitimacy of the Revolution stemmed as much from the collective will of the people as from the eventual support of those in official positions:
…Three millions of people, armed in the holy cause of liberty, and in such a country as that which we possess, are invincible by any force which our enemy can send against us. Besides, sir, we shall not fight our battles alone. There is a just God who presides over the destinies of nations, and who will raise up friends to fight our battles for us. The battle, sir, is not to the strong alone; it is to the vigilant, the active, the brave. Besides, sir, we have no election. If we were base enough to desire it, it is now too late to retire from the contest. There is no retreat, but in submission and slavery!
quote:
Having a bunch of citizens rebelling against the government and seeking to overthrow it is unlawful according to the teachings of the New Testament, at least.
Congratulations. You’ve just invalidated the American Revolution.
You are a Tory. Your devotion is as much to the throne of man as it is to the throne of Christ!
Posted on 1/1/26 at 9:06 pm to Toomer Deplorable
quote:I'm familiar with the justification, but the violation of natural rights is not sufficient according to the Bible. Just because a professing Christian says a thing doesn't mean that thing is justified by Scripture. Many Christians owned slaves as chattel and didn't have a problem with it. They even used the Bible as justification for owning slaves.
Colonists such as Patrick Henry — a devout Christian— would disagree. The increasingly oppressive measures from the Britain Crown were increasingly viewed as a gross violation of the colonist’s natural rights, prompting a grassroots movement that went beyond the authority of any magistrate.
Henry understood that sometimes moral imperatives necessitate drastic action outside of established authority. As indicated in Henry’s famous “Give Me Liberty Or Give Me Death” speech, the legitimacy of the Revolution stemmed as much from the collective will of the people as from the eventual support of those in official positions:
…Three millions of people, armed in the holy cause of liberty, and in such a country as that which we possess, are invincible by any force which our enemy can send against us. Besides, sir, we shall not fight our battles alone. There is a just God who presides over the destinies of nations, and who will raise up friends to fight our battles for us. The battle, sir, is not to the strong alone; it is to the vigilant, the active, the brave. Besides, sir, we have no election. If we were base enough to desire it, it is now too late to retire from the contest. There is no retreat, but in submission and slavery!
If you would like to make a biblical argument rather than a historical argument, I'd be open to it.
quote:Perhaps, but that's also why I said that lesser magistrates can potentially wage war and/or rebel on behalf of those they are ruling and governing. If the war was started by the local municipalities and colonial governors with the militias at their command, then there probably wouldn't be an issue with such a rebellion against tyranny. Citizens acting on their own without God-given authority is the sticking point.
Congratulations. You’ve just invalidated the American Revolution.
quote:Not at all. I'm not supportive of England and I'm happy with the result of living in America rather than in England. I'm just talking about lawful means of achieving the same result, and what Christians are authorized to do and not do according to what is pleasing to God.
You are a Tory. Your devotion is as much to the throne of man as it is to the throne of Christ!
Posted on 1/1/26 at 9:12 pm to Kjnstkmn
quote:
Maybe when we’re done with the tax revolt, we can stop pretending regulations, permits, and licenses are anything but adult permission slips.
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