re: The church is dying. The killer is the government

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jeez. Are you proposing that people won't commit acts of kindness if they don't go to church? Or that people that don't go to church are more selfish than those that do? You can't possibly be serious.

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That's the way his post came across.

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This is a sweeping generalization. There are plenty of non-religious people who oppose liberal economic policies, especially in the midwest and the south.

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Hell...this board ought to be a prime example of that! I'd say probably 80% of those who profess to be atheist are also pretty solidly right leaning. Many of us, however, have become far more Libertarian over time because of the insistence of the GOP to kowtow to the Religious Right in regards to social issues, but very few of us here line up on what most other places would consider the left.

Belief in the supernatural ought not be a litmus test for conservatives. By continuing to do this, they push many of us who have been life long supports further away.

Agreed, the republican party is struggling because they simply refuse to accept the votes of those who lack belief in God.

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One of the arguments that is used to defend baby murder is "I don't want to have to pay for them all their lives via welfare benefits." This line of thinking is creeping into the Conservative worldview as well as more and more conservatives are taking the "forget about social issues" approach.

The heart of the matter is that LBJ's shut up money has done a lot of harm, but no greater harm than killing the church. Think about this. 50 years ago, if you were homeless and/or hungry, you could show up at any church in any small town in the country, get a little Jesus, but really get what you needed: some food and a little bit of money from the benevolence fund.

I even remember growing up the son of a deacon in the 80s. A man came to church and he was hungry. It happened to be potluck night. He was treated like a king, and my dad asked me to sit in the back seat and he took this man to a local motel, paid for three nights and gave him a $100 bill and his business card. They found the man work the next morning.

The reality is that the government, via hundreds of welfare programs, has taken the job that the church is called to. And the church has responded by using money to build bigger, fancier buildings, "family life centers," and other extravagance. 50 years ago, a church would never think of taking out debt, now there are churches going under left and right trying to keep up with the church down the street.

And benevolence? Really? A colleague of mine who serves on a diaconate at a different church told me that one of their families was struggling with credit card debt so the church helped them out. I thought that was ridiculous. In other words, the church is just like the world, not standing out, so why bother?

The millennial generation isn't bothering. Surveys say that 88% of those between 18-30 are out of church, and 2/3 of them have no intentions of ever going. And the church is wondering where all this immorality came from - they contributed heavily to it. Time to wake up.

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maybe the Church isn't doing it as much more recently but there are plenty of poor and homeless people who get assistance from Churches, or organizations supported by the Catholic Church. I like what your saying but I don't know if it exactly is what is going on. I have met people who take homeless people to hotels and pay for a night, I know of places in NOLA where they have good every day where the homeless can go. there are places in NOLA where the homeless can go to get medical attention, clothing, along with other things for free. I still see the Church very active in it;s mission to the poor.

anc is dead on right about this, I speak from experience having grown up in the church. Sadly, I learned the hard way that today's church is exactly that about which John wrote to the congregation in Laodicea, "increased in goods, and having need of nothing".

I was a registered, enrolled member in good standing of a church in the DFW area, one that is among the most prominent and notable churches in the country. At the time I served in the new members ministry (I would operate the PowerPoint slides while the new members minister held the classes).

During that time I met someone who was a new member, with whom I became friends. He was unexpectedly laid off by his employer, and although he found work, he fell behind on his electric and phone bills.

I asked the secretary to the new members minister what the process was for him to seek benevolence from the church. I never did get an answer to that question. What I did receive was a lesson in how to become persona non grata.

Not two weeks later, I was asked by the new members minister to train a gentleman, and I was told by him that he would be serving in one of the other new members classes. After that series of classes was over, I found out that he was taking over my position, as the new members minister said that "he heard I was planning to leave the church" (which I never said).

In addition, my name tag suddenly "disappeared", never to be seen again. (We were required to keep them in a box at the church.)

It dawned on me that I made the "mistake" of seeking benevolence on someone else's behalf.

So I did leave. I tried going to other churches, even went back there for a while, seeing if maybe I was wrong. But to me it became clear that the "spirit of Laodicea" had taken a firm hold no matter where I went. I haven't been back to church since.

To the extent I hear about churches discussing social programs, it always is about what government should be doing (e.g., increasing the minimum wage, extending unemployment benefits, increasing SNAP), not about the church reclaiming its role in this area (Heaven forbid that we spend all our money on the poor woman--a registered, enrolled member by the way--who was lucky enough to grab the kids and leave before her husband beat them to death, and don't have enough left for our Senior Pastor to go deep sea fishing in the Caribbean!)

Id be interested in knowing as well, given that I grew up in DFW and know sone awesome/awful stories about churches in the area.

You make it seem like everyone who leaves the church is leaving for bad reasons, and that just isnt the case.

Many people are just simply outgrowing religion.

'The Church' has done countless things over the last 2 thousand years to drive people from it. Building fancy self-help centers is not likely to make the list.

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Quid says what I am trying to say.

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Glad I could help.

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1. The church is called to help the poor and downtrodden. They did this at one time in the country.
2. The government stepped in and took over this role with various welfare programs.

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And the biggest difference was that the church could refuse help (because it knew that Sammy Sinner would spend the money on booze and smokes, or that Tommy Traveler was a scam artist going through town on Sunday morning, hitting up every church in town with his well-rehearsed sob story, while Ronny Righteous needed the money because he lost his job when the factory shut down), whereas the government can't "discriminate" on such a basis.