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re: Structural/Systemic Injustice
Posted on 11/4/25 at 12:46 pm to 4cubbies
Posted on 11/4/25 at 12:46 pm to 4cubbies
quote:NO!
This is where the communication breakdown happens. Are you accusing me of completely enveloping myself in a perceived world of structural injustice?
Why would you think that?
As far as I can tell, your conversations center around the impact of injustice on others, not yourself.
E.g., legal and penal inequities.
I'm not under the impression you've ever personally been subjected to incarceration, or any of the potential injustices you highlight when addressing the topic.
quote:Cubs, I could run through dozens of anecdotes with identical themes. Sometimes the basis for the "excuse" is imaginary as with my earlier anecdote. Sometimes it is 100% real as in differential treatment of men and women in car buying negotiations at certain dealerships, or an Asian man denied admission to an elite school, which he was clearly qualified to attend. Regardless, the perception of injustice should not be allowed to define the person maintaining the perception or the pursuit of goals.
Re: your anecdote - people make bullshite excuses for why they don't get jobs or promotions all the time.
It's a matter of dwelling on solutions rather than dwelling on the originating problems. We all have perceptions, some of which are misconceived. If failure is continually rationalized as due to unalterable circumstances, rather than a focus on alterable issues, there is no hope for a better future outcome. That defines the hopelessness inherit in many victims of intergenerational poverty. It locks one into the "can't do" mindset I highlighted earlier.
You raised the "boot straps" spectre earlier. Often success is not a matter of working harder, but rather using a different approach and working smarter.
Taking this back to the Sandy story, focus on the process of problem-solving rather than problem dwelling is paramount. It shouldn't be offensive to ask if there was a different way that Sandy could have approached her dilemma. It's how we all attain better future outcomes.
It gets to RFK's premise,"Some men see things as they are and ask, 'Why?' I dream of things that never were and ask, 'Why not?'" Whether the subject is science, medicine, or social problem solution, individual exploration of the "why not" is central to American exceptionalism.
This post was edited on 11/4/25 at 1:54 pm
1
Posted on 11/4/25 at 1:05 pm to 4cubbies
quote:it isn't exactly on point, but your post reminds me of the Mika Brezinski story about Joe Scarborough's pay raise at MSNBC.
Have you not seen any of the number of posts here from white men who swear they didn't get a job or promotion because they are white men and not because they are aggressively average?
Scarborough went to management and negotiated a pay raise for himself.
Mika internally seethed that Scarborough was suddenly being paid so much more than she was. Her dissatisfaction simmered for weeks, and was affecting her relationship with her colleagues. Finally, she and Scarborough discussed it, and Joe simply said "why don't you go in and negotiate your own pay raise as I did?"
As she has observed retrospectively, incredible as it may seem, that is not the kind of conversation women are inherently comfortable with.
Nonetheless, she took his advice, sat down with management, and voilà! She received her own pay raise. These things are often not as insurmountable as they appear at first blush to the "victim."
This post was edited on 11/4/25 at 1:09 pm
Posted on 11/4/25 at 1:22 pm to 4cubbies
quote:
I guess it's easier to do that than to consider that there are very clearly groups that are disadvantaged through no fault of their own in our society.
No one forced Sandy to have 2 kids and no father at home. We have to stop that cycle in certain communities, and considering African immigrants come here to a supposedly white supremacist country, and within a generation bring home more income than the average white family, I'd say the US has done about all it can do.
I've been to 40+ countries and I don't think any of them have been able to pull something like that off... and yet we're still here flogging ourselves for "systemic injustice"
This post was edited on 11/4/25 at 1:24 pm
Posted on 11/4/25 at 2:19 pm to TN Tygah
quote:Nah.
I'd say the US has done about all it can do.
For starters, we could do away with anti-marriage government policies. Those have done more to destroy culture in select American households than poverty itself.
But as the attached video demonstrates, the effects are not just relegated to impoverished demographics. If the couple in the attached video were married, the woman would have to claim her de facto husband's income. But they aren't, so she doesn't.
Loading Twitter/X Embed...
If tweet fails to load, click here. This post was edited on 11/4/25 at 2:20 pm
Posted on 11/4/25 at 2:27 pm to NC_Tigah
quote:
NO!
Why would you think that?
As far as I can tell, your conversations center around the impact of injustice on others, not yourself.
Why even bring that up? Who is making their whole existence about focusing on this stuff? Everyone? No one? Some anonymous person?
quote:
I'm not under the impression you've ever personally been subjected to incarceration, or any of the potential injustices you highlight when addressing the topic.
Never been arrested or even accused of committing any crimes. Despite the narratives clung to here (and as much as it pains me to admit) I am a model citizen and always have been, excluding some underage drinking/partying and driving that I never got in trouble for doing anyway.
quote:I agree with this.
the perception of injustice should not be allowed to define the person maintaining the perception or the pursuit of goals.
quote:Right. Solutions are only pursued after problems have been identified or acknowledged, though.
It's a matter of dwelling on solutions rather than dwelling on the originating problems.
quote:
If failure is continually rationalized as due to unalterable circumstances, rather than a focus on alterable issues, there is no hope for a better future outcome.
I'm not excusing failure. There is nearly always a way out of whatever mess someone is in. I see people climb out of all kinds of holes all the time with the work I do, despite all the barriers and obstacles in their ways. It's truly remarkable and humbling, really. Even so, acknowledging the systemic issues that contribute to the really shitty situations people often find themselves in isn't really excusing anything.
quote:
Often success is not a matter of working harder, but rather using a different approach and working smarter.
Luck often plays a role, as well.
quote:
It shouldn't be offensive to ask if there was a different way that Sandy could have approached her dilemma
Solely focusing on her previous missteps doesn't address systemic issues, which I hoped would be the topic of discussion.
Posted on 11/4/25 at 2:30 pm to NC_Tigah
quote:
Nonetheless, she took his advice, sat down with management, and voilà! She received her own pay raise. These things are often not as insurmountable as they appear at first blush to the "victim."
As I often say irl, "sometimes it's so easy, it's hard."
Posted on 11/4/25 at 2:32 pm to TN Tygah
quote:
No one forced Sandy to have 2 kids and no father at home
"no father in the home" is not Sandy's choice. The father is responsible for abandoning his children, not Sandy.
quote:
and considering African immigrants come here to a supposedly white supremacist country, and within a generation bring home more income than the average white family, I'd say the US has done about all it can do.
If immigrants are able to accomplish things that many descendants of American slaves still cannot - how is that not an indicator of systemic issues?
Posted on 11/4/25 at 3:03 pm to 4cubbies
quote:
"no father in the home" is not Sandy's choice. The father is responsible for abandoning his children, not Sandy.
You don't know what happened. You're 100% a misandrist
The never question and hero worship of single mothers is part of the ongoing societal problem.
The worm is turning.
Posted on 11/4/25 at 3:04 pm to 4cubbies
quote:
no father in the home" is not Sandy's choice. The father is responsible for abandoning his children, not Sandy.
The female chose to have sex with the man, and she likely doesn’t even care the father isn’t present.
Posted on 11/4/25 at 3:27 pm to 4cubbies
quote:Because it is central to the issue of hopelessness, which is central to the issue of intergenerational poverty. It's an issue I care deeply about.
Why even bring that up?
In terms of structural social components, rather than focusing on "injustices," my preference would be to take advantage of the fact the United States is unique in its relative provision of upward mobility.
There is a little good news. It is apparent we have at least begun to tap into some of our structural potential, and now do a better job addressing persistent poverty than most of our European counterparts. Two thirds (66%) of children born in poverty in this country will be able to break that chain statistically, according to a 2023 study. It is a higher number than I realized.
quote:It is not a matter of "excusing." It is a matter of root cause analysis. Again, by avoiding salient details, the OP story is formulated to avoid such analysis. In the OP we cannot possibly assess accurately, the role of any "injustice," because essentially all we are provided is a problematic outcome. So just as you are not excusing failure, I'm not implying blame. We simply don't have enough information to establish causality one way or another.
I'm not excusing failure.
quote:Our personal experiences regarding these situations probably differ dramatically, driving what seems to be divergent perception, potential attributions, and solution sets. For example, regarding "systemic issues," my focus is on the positive issues at our disposal for solutions. Your focus is on perceived "injustices" which would be fairly assessed as negative issues. Where those exist, they certainly should be addressed.
Even so, acknowledging the systemic issues that contribute to the really shitty situations people often find themselves in isn't really excusing anything.
But I don't see structural injustice as core to either the problem, or productive solutions, and in my opinion, you have not made a valid case to the contrary. Perhaps structural/systemic injustice is an ancillary issue in general terms, but not to the extent that it would, on its own, prevent individual success within any broad demographic, otherwise. Certainly, in the distant past, that was not the case in the US.
quote:What previous missteps? Were there any delineated? Based on the OP, we really don't have that information. It seems you want to focus on structural/systemic injustice, which is fine. The OP really does not provide that segway, unless one is willing to jump to conclusions.
Solely focusing on her previous missteps doesn't address systemic issues, which I hoped would be the topic of discussion.
This post was edited on 11/4/25 at 3:33 pm
Posted on 11/4/25 at 3:28 pm to kilo
quote:I admit I had to look this word up but it's a good one and may fit this misfit. Telling y'all. She's just a troll with the same message almost always. Yet she rolls pages and pages of responses. I don't get it.
You're 100% a misandrist
Posted on 11/4/25 at 3:33 pm to 4cubbies
I’m not sure about “injustice”, but there are built in disadvantages for some people…
Posted on 11/4/25 at 3:33 pm to 4cubbies
I dont believe 5 people upvoted this
Posted on 11/4/25 at 3:38 pm to 4cubbies
quote:Unless I'm overlooking something in the story, there is no way to come to such a conclusion, other than emotional presumption. As far as I can tell, we don't know if Sandy is widowed, inherited children from a deceased sibling who willed Sandy as the caregiver, or if she was irresponsible in various ways. The same is true of the father(s).
"no father in the home" is not Sandy's choice. The father is responsible for abandoning his children, not Sandy.
This post was edited on 11/4/25 at 3:50 pm
Posted on 11/4/25 at 3:44 pm to 4cubbies
quote:
I've been reading about structural injustice
It exists.
It's almost completely directed against white men, then white women. It's anything but "unintended" and is actually the result of intentional engineering of favoring a specific group.
Posted on 11/4/25 at 3:47 pm to VOR
quote:All is relative. There is not a person alive w/o some "disadvantage." Perhaps what you're referring to is patently disabling disadvantage. Though such disadvantages absolutely exist, they do not exist throughout >40% of the US population. Nowhere near that.
there are built in disadvantages for some people…
Posted on 11/4/25 at 3:53 pm to NC_Tigah
quote:
Unless I'm overlooking something in the story, there is no way to come to such a conclusion, other than emotional presumption.
Why is it that literally every single other emotional presumption that Sandy is responsible for no father being in the home? And you never felt the need to call that out?
Posted on 11/4/25 at 4:15 pm to NC_Tigah
quote:
Again, by avoiding salient details
This is a subjective indictment that ignores the entire premise of the thread.
quote:
In the OP we cannot possibly assess accurately, the role of any "injustice," because essentially all we are provided is a problematic outcome. So just as you are not excusing failure, I'm not implying blame. We simply don't have enough information to establish causality one way or another.
The framework isn't about assigning blame. It's acknowledging that our society is structured in a way that can unintentionally (or intentionally depending on your outlook) harm people who are already struggling, like Sandy.
quote:Yes, because these realities harm a significant portion of our population who are often already at a disadvantage.
Your focus is on perceived "injustices" which would be fairly assessed as negative issues.
quote:
Certainly, in the distant past, that was not the case in the US.
Distant past? Many regular posters here were assuredly alive during part of this time.
quote:Plenty were thrown around in the comments.
What previous missteps? Were there any delineated?
quote:
It seems you want to focus on structural/systemic injustice, which is fine. The OP really does not provide that segway, unless one is willing to jump to conclusions.
I linked the whole lecture, and many poster still preferred to jump to conclusions rather than actually read it or attempt to discuss structural barriers. The default here (and in the whole country) is to blame women.
Regardless, I appreciate you engaging in the discussion
Posted on 11/4/25 at 4:16 pm to 4cubbies
quote:Oh those are equally unfounded, absolutely! Perhaps from some ineducable sources? FYI, if I ever come to view your posts that way, I'll cease to respond to them.
And you never felt the need to call that out?
Posted on 11/4/25 at 4:21 pm to 4cubbies
quote:Sort of the White fragility premise.
It's acknowledging that our society is structured in a way that can unintentionally (or intentionally depending on your outlook) harm people who are already struggling, like Sandy.
As with anthropogenic climate change, I'm not going to "acknowledge" a premise which is factually strained (to be polite).
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