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re: Satanists seek spot next to Ten Commandments monument on steps of OK's Statehous
Posted on 1/7/14 at 4:32 pm to sabes que
Posted on 1/7/14 at 4:32 pm to sabes que
quote:
Is your answer that God cannot be in the presence of sin? I am genuinely curious here. I think that it is a legitimate question. If it scares you, that is your problem. But, I think questioning why an all-loving and all-powerful god would send anyone to hell is a legit question. Sorry if you disagree
Again. If you were interested in intelligent debate, you would invest 30 seconds of your time to do some research.
It is clear what your intent here is. It has been pointed out. I don't know if you aren't smart enough to understand the value of relevance, reasonableness, and a basic understanding of issues in an adversarial discussion....if you do understand it, then you are intentionally ignoring those concepts to try and win some sort of "gotcha". It is one or the other....take your pick.
LINK
This post was edited on 1/7/14 at 4:37 pm
1
Posted on 1/7/14 at 4:34 pm to sabes que
quote:
But, I think questioning why an all-loving and all-powerful god would send anyone to hell is a legit question.
What is "hell"?
Posted on 1/7/14 at 4:36 pm to BBONDS25
I am sorry that you cannot answer the question. I guess if I was looking for a "gotcha"... Now would be a good time to say it. Gotcha!
Posted on 1/7/14 at 4:37 pm to sabes que
quote:
I am sorry that you cannot answer the question. I guess if I was looking for a "gotcha"... Now would be a good time to say it. Gotcha!
It is clear what your intent here is. It has been pointed out. I don't know if you aren't smart enough to understand the value of relevance, reasonableness, and a basic understanding of issues in an adversarial discussion....if you do understand it, then you are intentionally ignoring those concepts to try and win some sort of "gotcha". It is one or the other....take your pick.
Posted on 1/7/14 at 4:42 pm to BBONDS25
Does it really matter what my intent is? I read about 30 seconds of the first thing that came up on google and it had this to say a couple of paragraphs down.
"Though God was still God, we were entrusted with this world and appointed by God as its rulers. Instead of contend directly with God, Lucifer saw the opportunity to take the world for himself from us. He persuaded the innocent humans in Eden to obey him instead of God and, in doing so, became the ruler of the world. It was at that moment Lucifer fell and became Satan, and for reasons we can only ask God about later, God allowed Satan to live and remain the power to whom humans submit, making Satan the ruler of the world."
What an unbelievably unsatisfactory answer. Can you provide me with one better?
"Though God was still God, we were entrusted with this world and appointed by God as its rulers. Instead of contend directly with God, Lucifer saw the opportunity to take the world for himself from us. He persuaded the innocent humans in Eden to obey him instead of God and, in doing so, became the ruler of the world. It was at that moment Lucifer fell and became Satan, and for reasons we can only ask God about later, God allowed Satan to live and remain the power to whom humans submit, making Satan the ruler of the world."
What an unbelievably unsatisfactory answer. Can you provide me with one better?
Posted on 1/7/14 at 4:45 pm to Y.A. Tittle
quote:
What is "hell"?
"a place regarded in various religions as a spiritual realm of evil and suffering, often traditionally depicted as a place of perpetual fire beneath the earth where the wicked are punished after death"
Posted on 1/7/14 at 4:47 pm to sabes que
quote:
Also, you want to have discussion, OK well let's discuss this, You say that you believe in hell. So my question is why would an omnipotent, omnipresent, all loving God create a universe in which he knowingly was going to send the vast majority of people to hell for not believing in the right thing.? even though he loves said people an inordinate amount?
Would a holy omnipotent all knowing all powerful God need to give answers for why he does things? Even if he did answer all our questions, is it logical to believe we could comprehend them? Even in a room full of earthly intelectuals, the majority of the populace would be loss as they spoke on intricate topics. How much more above our capacity to understand would be the thinking of God. I'm sure he's already dumbed down his message for us to understand what is necessary.
Posted on 1/7/14 at 4:47 pm to sabes que
quote:
"a place regarded in various religions as a spiritual realm of evil and suffering, often traditionally depicted as a place of perpetual fire beneath the earth where the wicked are punished after death"
Just one of many definitions. Are you saying, that is the one you subscribe to?
Posted on 1/7/14 at 4:50 pm to Y.A. Tittle
quote:
Just one of many definitions. Are you saying, that is the one you subscribe to?
I do not subscribe to any definition of it because I do not believe it exist. However, I believe this to be a satisfactory, broad, definition that most Muslims and Christians would be satisfied with.
Posted on 1/7/14 at 4:53 pm to Revelator
quote:
Would a holy omnipotent all knowing all powerful God need to give answers for why he does things? Even if he did answer all our questions, is it logical to believe we could comprehend them? Even in a room full of earthly intelectuals, the majority of the populace would be loss as they spoke on intricate topics. How much more above our capacity to understand would be the thinking of God. I'm sure he's already dumbed down his message for us to understand what is necessary.
You sound like you would be a good Muslim. They are way more in to the whole "well god is god and he can do whatever the f*** he wants" way more than most Christians are.
Posted on 1/7/14 at 4:53 pm to sabes que
quote:
Does it really matter what my intent is?
Absolutely. Why would anyone want to have a discussion with someone whose sole intent is to get to some "gotcha"? Especially given the fact it seems the only path to that "gotcha" requires ignorance, strawmen, or irrelevance. You really think intent makes no difference? I don't ask this as an insult, but more for reference and better understanding....how old are you?
quote:
What an unbelievably unsatisfactory answer. Can you provide me with one better?
I guess you couldn't click more than one link. I'll do the legwork since you seem to be unable to do so in your quest for intelligent debate. I would imagine these will all be dismissed as unsatisfactory...which with your apparent limitations, I find amusing.
quote:
The answer to the question is found in Romans 9:21-23 which says,
“…does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use, and another for common use? 22 What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? 23 And He did so in order that He might make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory.”
So, according to the Bible it seems that God patiently endured the "bad" people so that He could express His great riches upon the people who go to heaven. These evil people freely choose to be evil, and if God were to stop them from existing then He would have to, in effect, stop people from being born who would never hear the gospel and who would reject the gospel.
But still, even the people going to hell can have a purpose in this life. There are many non-Christians who have advanced medicine, technology, and helped other people a great deal. God has ordained that they perform work which is ultimately for His glory since he has blessed even the lost with gifting – in accordance with them being made in God’s image. But, they reject God and are without excuse (Romans 1:20).
Finally, there is a logical problem with not creating people who go to hell. It would mean that no one would go to heaven. You see, without the crucifixion no one could be saved. But, in order for Jesus to be crucified, evil people had to lie about Him and murder Him. His crucifixion is the means by which we are saved. So, if God doesn't create people He knows will go to hell, then there would have been no crucifixion by which people could be saved. In that case, all people would go to hell. Therefore, if God was to not make anyone who would go to hell, then He would not make anyone at all.
quote:
The "problems" about the loving God of Christianity posed by the skeptics rests on invalid assumptions. Based on an invalid understanding of God's foreknowledge, they seek to avoid the consequences of their free will choice by offering a "solution" that violates the perfect character of God. Therefore, the "solution" would not be a valid solution for the God of Christianity.
quote:
Skeptic Vistonas Wu posted similar thoughts on the Web in an article titled “Debunking the Arguments of Christian Fundamentalists and Evangelists”: “If you were God, and you were omnipotent and could see throughout all time, would you create a world where you knew beforehand that the majority of people would end up in an eternal hell?” (2009). The answer implied by the skeptic is, “No.” But the problem with his reasoning is that humans are not all-knowing and that is why humans are not in such a position. In fact, in light of humanity’s limited knowledge, it easily could be the case that the information we do not have at the present is the very information that would lead an all-knowing Being to create the world as it is. The simple sounding question, “If you were God…,” can never be asked in any legitimate sense, and certainly cannot be used as “evidence” to impugn the character of God. If a person really could be God, then his thought process would be so different from what it is now, there is no way he could say what he would or would not do. It needs to be noted in this context that God has created humans in His image, endowing them with the ability to distinguish truth from error, and those ideas that are rational from those that are not. We are not contending that God’s choice to create people is irrational to humans, but rational to God. We are simply saying that God’s omniscience puts Him in a position to know all the details that would be needed to make a perfectly rational decision.
This post was edited on 1/7/14 at 4:55 pm
Posted on 1/7/14 at 4:54 pm to DCRebel
quote:
My response to that is usually along the lines of "who the hell are you to determine who is and isn't a 'real' Christian?"
If someone claimed to be a vegetarian but enjoyed steak dinners regularly wouldn't it be correct to say that they're not a true vegetarian? Do you feel the same about this scenario?
Posted on 1/7/14 at 4:56 pm to BBONDS25
Ahhh, yes, the old, God's mind is infinite and our's is finite. We could never be meant to understand him or his ways. Except for sometimes... like about his thoughts about what we do with our clothes off, we know exactly how he feels about that.
Posted on 1/7/14 at 4:59 pm to sabes que
quote:
However, I believe this to be a satisfactory, broad, definition that most Muslims and Christians would be satisfied with.
And I would believe that to be a specious assumption.
Posted on 1/7/14 at 5:00 pm to sabes que
re: Satanists seek spot next to Ten Commandments monument on steps of OK's Statehous (Posted on 1/7/14 at 4:56 pm to BBONDS25)
quote:
Ahhh, yes, the old, God's mind is infinite and our's is finite. We could never be meant to understand him or his ways. Except for sometimes... like about his thoughts about what we do with our clothes off, we know exactly how he feels about that.
There is the "gotcha" you wanted, right? You ignore the other two quotes from the google search and jump straight to the point you were hoping to make all along. I am sorry I wasted so much time....you prove every word I wrote correct. You are too limited to understand it, though.
Posted on 1/7/14 at 5:09 pm to sabes que
quote:
You sound like you would be a good Muslim. They are way more in to the whole "well god is god and he can do whatever the f*** he wants" way more than most Christians are.
Christianity requires faith as most religions do. Do you reject the premiss that God has provided all we need for salvation? Why would we expect or even pretend that we could understand the mind of God?
If a man wanted to explain quantum physics to his 5 year old, even if he reduced his discussion to the basic lowest level of learning, the child would be completely lossed. You have the presumption that there is some inherent right for man to know all?
Posted on 1/7/14 at 5:11 pm to BBONDS25
quote:
Finally, there is a logical problem with not creating people who go to hell. It would mean that no one would go to heaven. You see, without the crucifixion no one could be saved. But, in order for Jesus to be crucified, evil people had to lie about Him and murder Him. His crucifixion is the means by which we are saved. So, if God doesn't create people He knows will go to hell, then there would have been no crucifixion by which people could be saved. In that case, all people would go to hell. Therefore, if God was to not make anyone who would go to hell, then He would not make anyone at all.
Or since, he is ya know, god. He could just either not created evil or let evil be created in the first place.... or since he is all powerful, why can't he just forgive? Why does he need to sacrifice anyone or anything. ALL POWERFUL... Couldn't he simply... forgive.. and leave it at that?
Posted on 1/7/14 at 5:11 pm to BBONDS25
The thing I don't like about religion is it's impossible to be correct. It's all about what your parents believed and where you're born. it's not like one is any more believable than the others.
Posted on 1/7/14 at 5:14 pm to sabes que
quote:
He could just either not created evil or let evil be created in the first place....
Everything you say like the above statement is an assuption based solely on your own human understanding. This might or might not be a true statement?
Posted on 1/7/14 at 5:15 pm to sabes que
quote:
Or since, he is ya know, god. He could just either not created evil or let evil be created in the first place.... or since he is all powerful, why can't he just forgive? Why does he need to sacrifice anyone or anything. ALL POWERFUL... Couldn't he simply... forgive.. and leave it at that?
Feel better. Was that the "gotcha" you were looking for? You dismiss with sarcasm and ignorance....a true sign of someone interested in intelligent debate. I would imagine if everything you were unable to comprehend didn't exist...there would be millions of people out of work. Yet you think you have a grasp on it all. Not sure if it's funny or sad.
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