- My Forums
- Tiger Rant
- LSU Recruiting
- SEC Rant
- Saints Talk
- Pelicans Talk
- More Sports Board
- Fantasy Sports
- Golf Board
- Soccer Board
- O-T Lounge
- Tech Board
- Home/Garden Board
- Outdoor Board
- Health/Fitness Board
- Movie/TV Board
- Book Board
- Music Board
- Political Talk
- Money Talk
- Fark Board
- Gaming Board
- Travel Board
- Food/Drink Board
- Ticket Exchange
- TD Help Board
Customize My Forums- View All Forums
- Show Left Links
- Topic Sort Options
- Trending Topics
- Recent Topics
- Active Topics
Started By
Message
re: Reagan era judges shoots down Trump 14th amendment EO
Posted on 1/23/25 at 6:33 pm to SammyTiger
Posted on 1/23/25 at 6:33 pm to SammyTiger
quote:
The people writing the 14th amendment were more aware of immigrants than the people writing the 2nd amendment were aware of automatic rifles and school shootings.
You want have your cake or do you wanna eat it?
Not at all. They obviously had some idea about the evolution of immigration to come because they debated the meaning of jurisdiction and included it in the text.
They did no such thing when they wrote "shall not be infringed."
Funny... you seem to be OK with the abuse and erosion of the 2nd Amendment, but it's hands off the 14th and anchor babies?
Talk about having AND eating cake.
Posted on 1/23/25 at 6:34 pm to SammyTiger
quote:
native americans? who were considered a separate nation?
Yes, many of them were born here and they were subject to our laws. They meet the two requirements needed to become citizens.
Yet the congress that wrote the 14th Amendment, never objected to their exclusion.
The Supreme Court would later rule that they weren't citizens due to them owing allegiance to another country.
Posted on 1/23/25 at 6:39 pm to SlowFlowPro
quote:
Congress cannot constrict citizenship beyond the Constitutional baseline.
It has all the plenary power to expand citizenship beyond this minimum.
Not sure you understand what "absolute power" is.
It's absolute, but not like that.
This is your legal analysis??
Posted on 1/23/25 at 6:39 pm to JoeHackett
quote:
Does that mean that free speech didn't need to codified?
REALLY bad example. There's a reason why it is part of an amendment.
quote:
Congress makes laws. If the founders thought it wasn't necessary, they wouldn't have codified it.
We adopted the English Common law when we formed the US. They didn't have to codify it, and the fact they did, does not create any further implications.
quote:
How do you determine the intent of a law without determining the intent of the people who wrote that law?
Textualism.
quote:
They're the same thing.
No. Scalia and Thomas specifically reject legislative intent as it has no place in a textualist analysis.
Textualism isn't the only analysis, just as legislative intent isn't the only intent.
quote:
He says quite plainly that the Federalist Papers are important because they give insight into the intent of the founders.
And they are not an example of legislative intent, as they have nothing to do with any legislation.
Posted on 1/23/25 at 6:42 pm to VOR
Damn voR. So you went out on a limb and stated the SCOTUS would rule against a non constitutional law. Wow
Posted on 1/23/25 at 6:42 pm to Gideon Swashbuckler
quote:
Not sure you understand what "absolute power" is.
Congress does not have "absolute" power in this area.
Congress is always constrained by the Constitution.
I'll repost what I said:
quote:
Congress cannot constrict citizenship beyond the Constitutional baseline.
It has all the plenary power to expand citizenship beyond this minimum
I bolded for you.
This post was edited on 1/23/25 at 6:43 pm
Posted on 1/23/25 at 6:44 pm to JoeHackett
quote:
Did freedom of speech exist in the geographic area of the US prior to codification(ratification) by Congress? Yes.
Does that mean that free speech didn't need to codified?
Depends on what founder you ask. Alexander Hamilton said the entire BOR was unnecessary in Federalist 84.
Posted on 1/23/25 at 6:46 pm to Gideon Swashbuckler
quote:
Alexander Hamilton said the entire BOR was unnecessary in Federalist 84.
To further complicate things, the 1A wasn't even incorporated to the states until about 30 years after Wong Kim Ark.
Other parts of the BOR took almost a century.
This post was edited on 1/23/25 at 6:48 pm
Posted on 1/23/25 at 6:47 pm to SlowFlowPro
quote:
Scalia and Thomas specifically reject legislative intent as it has no place in a textualist analysis.
If textualism refers to the meaning of language at the time of enactment, how can the meaning intended by the people who wrote that language be ignored?
Posted on 1/23/25 at 6:48 pm to SlowFlowPro
When giving pardons, what restrictions does the POTUS have?
Zero. That's plenary or absolute power.
Congress either has plenary or absolute power, like the POTUS has with issuing pardons, or they don't.
So I'll ask again..
Which is it?
Zero. That's plenary or absolute power.
Congress either has plenary or absolute power, like the POTUS has with issuing pardons, or they don't.
So I'll ask again..
Which is it?
This post was edited on 1/23/25 at 6:56 pm
Posted on 1/23/25 at 6:49 pm to Willie Stroker
quote:
If textualism refers to the meaning of language at the time of enactment, how can the meaning intended by the people who wrote that language be ignored?
when you can read the amendment clearly and not have any questions.
The amendment was written in the 1860s. the Court ruled on it in 1898. It’s not like they didn’t understand the words anymore.
Posted on 1/23/25 at 6:50 pm to Gideon Swashbuckler
quote:
Depends on what founder you ask. Alexander Hamilton said the entire BOR was unnecessary in Federalist 84.
Thus the problem with post-Bruen originalism. There are enough primary sources to support any position and it therefore simply becomes a political exercise for the justices. Pick the desired outcome and you can find historical sources for your position.
Posted on 1/23/25 at 6:53 pm to boosiebadazz
quote:
Thus the problem with post-Bruen originalism. There are enough primary sources to support any position and it therefore simply becomes a political exercise for the justices. Pick the desired outcome and you can find historical sources for your position.
It can be quite annoying.
Posted on 1/23/25 at 6:56 pm to Willie Stroker
quote:
If textualism refers to the meaning of language at the time of enactment, how can the meaning intended by the people who wrote that language be ignored?
quote:
“The greatest defect of legislative history is its illegitimacy. We are governed by laws, not by the intentions of legislators.”
quote:
“The text’s the thing. We should therefore ignore drafting history without discussing it, instead of after discussing it.”
-Scalia
You look to the common usage of the time. Dictionaries, common law history, etc.
If you want to see Scalia's magnum opus, read Heller. He got the first bite at the apple of writing novel Constitutional law, which is rare.
quote:
Justice STEVENS relies on the drafting history of the Second Amendment—the various proposals in the state conventions and the debates in Congress. It is dubious to rely on such history to interpret a text that was widely understood to codify a pre-existing right, rather than to fashion a new one. But even assuming that this legislative history is relevant, Justice STEVENS flatly misreads the historical record.
It is true, as Justice STEVENS says, that there was concern that the Federal Government would abolish the institution of the state militia. See post, at 2832 – 2833. That concern found expression, however, not in the various Second Amendment precursors proposed in the State conventions, but in separate structural provisions that would have given the States concurrent and seemingly nonpre-emptible authority to organize, discipline, and arm the militia when the Federal Government failed to do so. See Veit 17, 20 (Virginia proposal); 4 J. Eliot, The Debates in the Several State Conventions on the Adoption of the Federal Constitution 244, 245 (2d ed. 1836) (reprinted 1941) (North Carolina proposal); see also 2 Documentary Hist. 624 (Pennsylvania minority's proposal). The Second Amendment precursors, by contrast, referred to the individual English right already codified in two (and probably four) State constitutions. The Federalist-dominated first Congress chose to reject virtually all major structural revisions favored by the Antifederalists, including the proposed militia amendments. Rather, it adopted primarily the popular and uncontroversial (though, in the Federalists' view, unnecessary) individual-rights amendments. The Second Amendment right, protecting only individuals' liberty to keep and carry arms, did nothing to assuage Antifederalists' concerns about federal control of the militia. See, e.g., Centinel, Revived, No. XXIX, Philadelphia Independent Gazetteer, Sept. 9, 1789, in Young 711, 712.
Justice STEVENS thinks it significant that the Virginia, New York, and North Carolina Second Amendment proposals were “embedded ... within a group of principles that are distinctly military in meaning,” such as statements about the danger of standing armies. Post, at 2833 – 2834. But so was the highly influential minority proposal in Pennsylvania, yet that proposal, with its reference to hunting, plainly referred to an individual right. See 2 Documentary Hist. 624. Other than that erroneous point, Justice STEVENS has brought forward absolutely no evidence that those proposals conferred only a right to carry arms in a militia. By contrast, New Hampshire's proposal, the Pennsylvania minority's proposal, and Samuel Adams' proposal in Massachusetts unequivocally referred to individual rights, as did two state constitutional provisions at the time. See Veit 16, 17 (New Hampshire proposal); 6 Documentary Hist. 1452, 1453 (J. Kaminski & G. Saladino eds. 2000) (Samuel Adams' proposal). Justice STEVENS' view thus relies on the proposition, unsupported by any evidence, that different people of the founding period had vastly different conceptions of the right to keep and bear arms. That simply does not comport with our longstanding view that the Bill of Rights codified venerable, widely understood liberties.
We now address how the Second Amendment was interpreted from immediately after its ratification through the end of the 19th century. Before proceeding, however, we take issue with Justice STEVENS' equating of these sources with postenactment legislative history, a comparison that betrays a fundamental misunderstanding of a court's interpretive task. See post, at 2837, n. 28. “Legislative history,” of course, refers to the pre-enactment statements of those who drafted or voted for a law; it is considered persuasive by some, not because they reflect the general understanding of the disputed terms, but because the legislators who heard or read those statements presumably voted with that understanding. Ibid. “Postenactment legislative history,” ibid., a deprecatory contradiction in terms, refers to statements of those who drafted or voted for the law that are made after its enactment and hence could have had no effect on the congressional vote. It most certainly does not refer to the examination of a variety of legal and other sources to determine the public understanding of a legal text in the period after its enactment or ratification. That sort of inquiry is a critical tool of constitutional interpretation. As we will show, virtually all interpreters of the Second Amendment in the century after its enactment interpreted the amendment as we do.
Posted on 1/23/25 at 6:57 pm to Gideon Swashbuckler
quote:
Congress either has plenary or absolute power, like the POTUS has with issuing pardons, or they don't.
Congress is always constrained by the Constitution, but has all the power given via the Constitution above these limits. This is not a difficult issue.
quote:
Which is it?
You're creating a conflated false choice.
Posted on 1/23/25 at 7:00 pm to SlowFlowPro
quote:
Congress is always constrained by the Constitution, but has all the power given via the Constitution above these limits. This is not a difficult issue.
The POTUS isn't constrained by the constitution when issuing pardons.
He can issue a pardon to anyone for any federal crime.
So again, Congress either has absolute power when it comes to naturalization like that, or they don't. The consitution gives the Congress plenary power to the Congress with regards to Naturalization, no?
Then you say they have plenary power except that which is limited by a SCOTUS opinion.
So you'd be OK with the SCOTUS limiting presidential pardons??
This post was edited on 1/23/25 at 7:03 pm
Posted on 1/23/25 at 7:01 pm to SlowFlowPro
Like I said.
"subject to the jurisdiction"
Political jurisdiction is not the same as territorial jurisdiction.
Context of the times tells us it is territorial jurisdiction.
Application of criminal laws is territorial jurisdiction.
Citizenship, voting, taxation, etc, are political jurisdictional..
Posted on 1/23/25 at 7:10 pm to Gideon Swashbuckler
quote:
The POTUS isn't constrained by the constitution when issuing pardons.
Because the Constitution grants him this power
quote:
Congress either has absolute power when it comes to naturalization like that, or they don't.
quote:
The power of naturalization, vested in congress by the constitution, is a power to confer citizenship, not a power to take it away. 'A naturalized citizen,' said Chief Justice Marshall, 'becomes a member of the society, possessing all the rights of a native citizen, and standing, in the view of the constitution, on the footing of a native. The constitution does not authorize congress to enlarge or abridge those rights. The simple power of the national legislature is to prescribe a uniform rule of naturalization, and the exercise of this power exhausts it, so far as respects the individual. The constitution then takes him up, and, among other rights, extends to him the capacity of suing in the courts of the United States, precisely under the same circumstances under which a native might sue.' Osborn v. Bank, 9 Wheat. 738, 827. Congress having no power to abridge the rights conferred by the constitution upon those who have become naturalized citizens by virtue of acts of congress, a fortiori no act or omission of congress, as to providing for the naturalization of parents or children of a particular race, can affect citizenship acquired as a birthright, by virtue of the constitution itself, without any aid of legislation. The fourteenth amendment, while it leaves the power, where it was before, in congress, to regulate naturalization, has conferred no authority upon congress to restrict the effect of birth, declared by the constitution to constitute a sufficient and complete right to citizenship.
Already explained to you.
Naturalization and the right of citizenship granted to individuals are 2 different things. It's a baseline that Congress cannot violate.
You are conflating concepts.
Posted on 1/23/25 at 7:12 pm to TrueTiger
quote:
"subject to the jurisdiction"
Political jurisdiction is not the same as territorial jurisdiction.
Context of the times tells us it is territorial jurisdiction.
quote:
The words 'in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof,' in the first sentence of the fourteenth amendment of the constitution, must be presumed to have been understood and intended by the congress which proposed the amendment, and by the legislatures which adopted it, in the same sense in which the like words had been used by Chief Justice Marshall in the wellknown case of The Exchange, and as the equivalent of the words 'within the limits and under the jurisdiction of the United States,' and the converse of the words 'out of the limits and jurisdiction of the United States,' as habitually used in the naturalization acts. This presumption is confirmed by the use of the word 'jurisdiction,' in the last clause of the same section of the fourteenth amendment, which forbids any state to 'deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.' It is impossible to construe the words 'subject to the jurisdiction thereof,' in the opening sentence, as less comprehensive than the words 'within its jurisdiction,' in the concluding sentence of the same section; or to hold that persons 'within the jurisdiction' of one of the states of the Union are not 'subject to the jurisdiction of the United States.'
75
These considerations confirm the view, already expressed in this opinion, that the opening sentence of the fourteenth amendment is throughout affirmative and declaratory, intended to allay doubts and to settle controversies which had arisen, and not to impose any new restrictions upon citizenship.
By the civil rights act of 1866, 'all persons born in the United States, and not subject to any foreign power, excluding Indians not taxed,' were declared to be citizens of the United States. In the light of the law as previously established, and of the history of the times, it can hardly be doubted that the words of that act, 'not subject to any foreign power,' were not intended to exclude any children born in this country from the citizenship which would theretofore have been their birthright; or, for instance, for the first time in our history, to deny the right of citizenship to native-born children or foreign white parents not in the diplomatic service of their own country, nor in hostile occupation of part of our territory. But any possible doubt in this regard was removed when the negative words of the civil rights act, 'not subject to any foreign power,' gave way, in the fourteenth amendment of the constitution, to the affirmative words, 'subject to the jurisdiction of the United States.'
77
This sentence of the fourteenth amendment is declaratory of existing rights, and affirmative of existing law, as to each of the qualifications therein expressed,—'born in the United States,' 'naturalized in the United States,' and 'subject to the jurisdiction thereof'; in short, as to everything relating to the acquisition of citizenship by facts occurring within the limits of the United States. But it has not touched the acquisition of citizenship by being born abroad of American parents; and has left that subject to be regulated, as it had always been, by congress, in the exercise of the power conferred by the constitution to establish a uniform rule of naturalization.
78
The effect of the enactments conferring citizenship on foreign-born children of American parents has been defined, and the fundamental rule of citizenship by birth within the dominion of the United States, notwithstanding alienage of parents, has been affirmed, in wel- considered opinions of the executive departments of the government, since the adoption of the fourteenth amendment of the constitution.
Posted on 1/23/25 at 7:18 pm to SlowFlowPro
quote:
If the appellate court rules this EO is unconstitutional, I can see a path where the USSC does not even accept the writ.
Damn woke liberal judges appointed by *checks notes* - Ronald Reagan
11-D chess time
Popular
Back to top


0








