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Message
re: Pope (emeritus) Benedict has died
Posted on 12/31/22 at 3:57 pm to Mo Jeaux
Posted on 12/31/22 at 3:57 pm to Mo Jeaux
quote:Like Mary, it gets more attention that it rightfully deserves. This is because it's easy. It's easy for people to appeal to a nurturing mother figure. It's easy for people to eat a wafer and drink a sip of wine. The hard stuff is where you lose the Catholics and lots of weak people in general, so those that want ease and comfort choose praying to and worshiping Mary (and saying you don't doesn't persuade anyone with a brain and a dictionary - you absolutely DO!) and popping some free food in your mouths. Faith and doing the right things aren't about rituals or shortcuts or what makes you comfortable. Comfort is the enemy of growth.
Wait, is your position really that communion isn’t, and hasn’t historically been, a central tenet of Christian worship?
0
Posted on 12/31/22 at 3:59 pm to Champagne
quote:I'm not. I read your link, it was stupid. It's the logical equivalent of throwing good money after bad. It seems to think that Jesus didn't speak in parables or metaphors... all of a sudden... in contrast to most of His teachings...
Nope, Loudmouth Ignoramus, swing and a miss for you.
The clear historical record of facts proves that you and Foo are dead wrong on the Eucharist. You are entitled to your own opinion but you are not entitled to your own facts.
Posted on 12/31/22 at 4:00 pm to Champagne
quote:One word =/= "all caps"
When a guy uses all caps, he's already lost the argument!
Posted on 12/31/22 at 4:02 pm to Mo Jeaux
quote:Well if it is the "core" of the RCC, as Bishop Woodforaltarboys said in that link, then shouldn't it take more than being barely mentioned?
I love the Jesus “barely” said it comment.
I would like to thank all of you for proving my point that there is no good pro-Catholic argument.
Posted on 12/31/22 at 4:05 pm to VolcanicTiger
quote:
He barely referred to "it" at all. He said "whenever you drink of this cup or eat of this bread, remember me." Besides the OBVIOUS symbolism, what part of this makes it a ritual, as opposed to something to do every time you drank wine and ate bread, or any food or drink, for that matter?
He has an entire discourse on it in John 6:
quote:
52 The Jews then disputed among themselves, saying, “How can this man give us his flesh to eat?” 53 So Jesus said to them, “Very truly, I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. 54 Those who eat my flesh and drink my blood have eternal life, and I will raise them up on the last day, 55 for my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink. 56 Those who eat my flesh and drink my blood abide in me and I in them. 57 Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so whoever eats me will live because of me. 58 This is the bread that came down from heaven, not like that which the ancestors ate, and they died. But the one who eats this bread will live forever.” 59 He said these things while he was teaching in a synagogue at Capernaum.
Add to this what St. Ignatius of Antioch says about the Eucharist in his writings from AD 107 and what St. Justin Martyr has to say about it in his writings from AD 150, and you get the sense that it was considered to be more than just a symbol by the early Christians.
This post was edited on 12/31/22 at 4:07 pm
Posted on 12/31/22 at 4:05 pm to VolcanicTiger
You know, it’s not just Catholics who believe that communion is a central tenet of worship. And do you really think it’s barely mentioned in scripture?
Posted on 12/31/22 at 4:11 pm to Champagne
quote:Could you please be extra kind to me and point me to a specific article on that site that you are wanting to use to prove me wrong?
Foo:
Historical fact proves you wrong. AGAIN! Doggone it, you are wrong a lot around here.
LINK
It'd also be nice if you were to let me know ahead of time which claim I made that you are rebutting.
Thanks in advance
Posted on 12/31/22 at 4:11 pm to RollTide1987
quote:He wasn't talking about the Eucharist, he was speaking M-E-T-A-P-H-O-R-I-C-A-L-L-Y.
52 The Jews then disputed among themselves, saying, “How can this man give us his flesh to eat?” 53 So Jesus said to them, “Very truly, I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. 54 Those who eat my flesh and drink my blood have eternal life, and I will raise them up on the last day, 55 for my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink. 56 Those who eat my flesh and drink my blood abide in me and I in them. 57 Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so whoever eats me will live because of me. 58 This is the bread that came down from heaven, not like that which the ancestors ate, and they died. But the one who eats this bread will live forever.” 59 He said these things while he was teaching in a synagogue at Capernaum.
Amazing how you cut out the stuff that proves me right:
quote:
When they found him on the other side of the lake, they asked him, “Rabbi, when did you get here?” 26 Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, you are looking for me, not because you saw the signs I performed but because you ate the loaves and had your fill. 27 Do not work for food that spoils, but for food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give you. For on him God the Father has placed his seal of approval.” 28 Then they asked him, “What must we do to do the works God requires?” 29 Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.” 30 So they asked him, “What sign then will you give that we may see it and believe you? What will you do? 31 Our ancestors ate the manna in the wilderness; as it is written: ‘He gave them bread from heaven to eat.’[c]” 32 Jesus said to them, “Very truly I tell you, it is not Moses who has given you the bread from heaven, but it is my Father who gives you the true bread from heaven. 33 For the bread of God is the bread that comes down from heaven and gives life to the world.” 34 “Sir,” they said, “always give us this bread.” 35 Then Jesus declared, “I am the bread of life. Whoever comes to me will never go hungry, and whoever believes in me will never be thirsty. 36 But as I told you, you have seen me and still you do not believe. 37 All those the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. 38 For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. 39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. 40 For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.” 41 At this the Jews there began to grumble about him because he said, “I am the bread that came down from heaven.” 42 They said, “Is this not Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How can he now say, ‘I came down from heaven’?” 43 “Stop grumbling among yourselves,” Jesus answered. 44 “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day. 45 It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by God.’[d] Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me. 46 No one has seen the Father except the one who is from God; only he has seen the Father. 47 Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life. 48 I am the bread of life. 49 Your ancestors ate the manna in the wilderness, yet they died. 50 But here is the bread that comes down from heaven, which anyone may eat and not die. 51 I am the living bread that came down from heaven. Whoever eats this bread will live forever. This bread is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.”
He said to believe. He didn't say "believe... oh yeah, and eat some bread and ignore the bread taste, that's really my flesh, and that's what saves you, so... yeah, believe and eat... I'll get into drinking later on, so don't die beforehand or you'll go to Hell."
Posted on 12/31/22 at 4:11 pm to VolcanicTiger
quote:
'm not. I read your link, it was stupid. It's the logical equivalent of throwing good money after bad. It seems to think that Jesus didn't speak in parables or metaphors... all of a sudden... in contrast to most of His teachings...
You are dead wrong. You are lying about reading the "link" because there's a dozen well-researched articles there for folks who wish to educate themselves on the Eucharist.
I don't have time to educate you. You'll have to do your own research. Good luck!
Posted on 12/31/22 at 4:13 pm to Mo Jeaux
quote:Catholics like rituals. I'm betting Jesus devoted about 30 seconds out of His 32 years demonstrating it, and only at the end. The bigger picture is what He went around telling people. The fact that you miss the big picture is sad. It's like saving up all your life to spend two weeks in Tokyo and then you never leave Narita Airport when you get there.
You know, it’s not just Catholics who believe that communion is a central tenet of worship. And do you really think it’s barely mentioned in scripture?
Posted on 12/31/22 at 4:13 pm to Champagne
quote:Not sure what facts you're referring to. Not only did I quote one of the key early church fathers' remarks first, I provided specific context and even linked to the letter where it came from to be generous and let the other poster read it for himself, giving him the opportunity to show me where I'm wrong about my reading.
Foo ignores inconvenient facts.
It's easy to call names without having to support your statements, but I'm at least trying to have a reasoned argument, supporting my claims, especially when challenged.
Posted on 12/31/22 at 4:14 pm to Champagne
quote:The "research" is a circle-jerk, nothing more. You're wrong. Reality proves it, and the fact that you have GF wafers proves even your leaders don't believe it.
You are dead wrong. You are lying about reading the "link" because there's a dozen well-researched articles there for folks who wish to educate themselves on the Eucharist.
I don't have time to educate you. You'll have to do your own research. Good luck!
Posted on 12/31/22 at 4:16 pm to RollTide1987
quote:1. You assume that the Real Presence has been an explicitly held and taught doctrine from the beginning, and
I also find it interesting that the most ancient Christian denominations (Catholicism and Orthodox) acknowledge the Real Presence in the Eucharist, yet it wasn't until the 16th century that people finally figured out that such a belief was unbiblical.
2. You seem surprised that a church that burned people at the stake for questioning their doctrine wouldn't have anyone pointing out where they may have had it wrong prior to the Reformation, where the RCC burned people at the stake for pointing out where they were wrong. I don't find that to be surprising at all.
Posted on 12/31/22 at 4:16 pm to VolcanicTiger
I doubt very much that you know the bigger picture. You’ve demonstrated in this thread that not only are you ignorant, but you think being ignorant is a virtue.
Posted on 12/31/22 at 4:16 pm to VolcanicTiger
quote:
He wasn't talking about the Eucharist, he was speaking M-E-T-A-P-H-O-R-I-C-A-L-L-Y.
If he was speaking metaphorically then why did he let the elders and some of his disciples walk away? When he was speaking metaphorically he was usually pretty clear that he was being metaphorical. Not here. He is being quite literal.
quote:
Amazing how you cut out the stuff that proves me right:
None of that proves you right. He's speaking of literal food as he was comparing it to the literal food God gave to the Israelites in the Wilderness.
Posted on 12/31/22 at 4:18 pm to RollTide1987
quote:Perhaps you should read the passages leading up to that one in John 6, especially the miracle of the fish and loaves.
He has an entire discourse on it in John 6:
Also, perhaps you should examine John as a whole more closely where Jesus spoke of Himself using symbolic language time and time again, such as being a vine, a door, and a shepherd.
Posted on 12/31/22 at 4:20 pm to Mo Jeaux
quote:I know more than you, so why would I think ignorance is a virtue? You miss the big picture, that's on you. You let people invested in obtaining and maintaining power reassure you that they should obtain and maintain power, that's on you. You're a fool. You want to tell me that Gluten-Free Jesus is actually flesh, even though it tastes like bread and would look like bread under a microscope? Be my guest. You'd have better luck telling me 2+2=5. God gave us brains to NOT be stupid. You should try it sometime.
I doubt very much that you know the bigger picture. You’ve demonstrated in this thread that not only are you ignorant, but you think being ignorant is a virtue.
Posted on 12/31/22 at 4:21 pm to FooManChoo
what I always find funny about protestants is that they say the eucharist as metaphorical, but then take the book of revelations at face value.
this happens everywhere too
this happens everywhere too
This post was edited on 12/31/22 at 4:24 pm
Posted on 12/31/22 at 4:22 pm to RollTide1987
quote:So then He was lying when He said no one who follows Him would be hungry or thirsty, or did Pope Pedophilius reassure you that he has some secret access that proves Jesus was being metaphorical just at that point but nowhere else? Because I gotta tell you, lots of Christians have been hungry and thirsty over the years.
None of that proves you right. He's speaking of literal food as he was comparing it to the literal food God gave to the Israelites in the Wilderness.
Posted on 12/31/22 at 4:23 pm to FooManChoo
quote:
Also, perhaps you should examine John as a whole more closely where Jesus spoke of Himself using symbolic language time and time again, such as being a vine, a door, and a shepherd.
Yeah, and then he moves on. No one questions it and everyone seems to understand that he isn't speaking literal. It's in the Bread of Life discourse in John 6 where he gets a lot of pushback because the people listening to him speak take him literally. Instead of hitting them with an analogy or a parable to make them better understand what he is saying, he doubles down and repeats himself, dwelling on this imagery much more than he does when he calls himself the light of the world or the vine or a door or a shepherd.
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