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Message
re: Pope (emeritus) Benedict has died
Posted on 1/2/23 at 8:12 pm to Cajunbobsled
Posted on 1/2/23 at 8:12 pm to Cajunbobsled
quote:You would benefit greatly from Tom Holland, Paul Vanderklay, and Jordan Peterson.
A little Hitchens and Sam Harris would do so many people so much good. Religion is man made nonsense that gives people reason to do evil things because they have god on their side...
Can you imagine doing good apart from God?
Can you imagine defining 'good' apart from God?
I can't recommend C.S. Lewis's Abolition of Man enough.
0
Posted on 1/2/23 at 8:16 pm to Cajunbobsled
quote:Universal morality, or what Lewis calls The Tao is a given. Once you realize that, then you can get into a few of the major religions. What else is there other than Christianiy, Islam, and the Easterns that warrants any attention?
Religion is clearly man made that's why there are so many religions..
And then, the Easterns have no god. So it's down to Islam and Christianity for understanding the moral fabric of the universe.
Which of those two make the boldest of claims? Christianity. There you go.
The life, claims, and teaching of Jesus is what ultimately everyone must deal with.
Posted on 1/2/23 at 8:22 pm to Stitches
quote:
Unabridged Christianity by Fr. Mario Romero
I had a life time supply of straws half way into the first chapter. The guy has no clue what Luther believed or what the Reformation was.
I actually had a bit of intellectual respect for you until I saw that recommendation.
Posted on 1/2/23 at 8:31 pm to Champagne
quote:Dishonest. Not even Cardinal Cajetan himself disagreed with Luther on the number of books in the Biblical canon. Hell, if we're being really honest most of the RC heirarchy had no clue about anything found in the Bible, nor did they care.
Also, message to fellow Catholics: the Protestant churches edited the Bible to excise and remove more than a mere handful of Holy Books from the Old Testament. They did this more than 1,500 years after the Apostles preached from the Catholic Bible.
The Biblical updated Roman Catholic Biblical canon was conveniently completed after Protestants had broken from the church in response to the Reformers.
You folks are really kidding yourself if you don't deny that reform was needed.
Posted on 1/2/23 at 8:38 pm to Champagne
quote:No way!
The Early Church Was The Catholic Church.
There is still only one church. You're in it. I'm in it. Foo is in it. Relevator is in it. And Stitches is in it.
As you know, catholic means universal, and we are all united by a universal, widely held belief in Jesus Christ.
Was there not disagreement and factions throughout the ages? Yes! Division is featured in every century of church history. But the disagreement is not enough to say that we hold different faiths and different baptisms (unless the pope says so apparently). Being I don't acknowledge popes, you and me, we're good!
This post was edited on 1/2/23 at 8:39 pm
Posted on 1/2/23 at 9:12 pm to bayoubengals88
quote:
What denomination did you convert from. This should tell all.
Baptist
quote:
Purgatory was invented to justify indulgences. Isn't it obvious?
Still seems like Christ wasn't enough for you. How else can I see it?
Christ’s sufferings were more than enough. However, Paul spoke of completing what was “lacking” in Christ’s sufferings in Col 1:24. If this mode of speech was permissible for Paul, it is permissible for us.
Posted on 1/2/23 at 9:17 pm to Cajunbobsled
As many as you can, but the book The Father's Know Best is a good overview of what many of them believed.
Polycarp and Ignatius were apostles of John, so they are good starting points as to what the apostles taught. Irenaeus is another popular one. Clement of Rome is another.
Polycarp and Ignatius were apostles of John, so they are good starting points as to what the apostles taught. Irenaeus is another popular one. Clement of Rome is another.
Posted on 1/2/23 at 9:31 pm to bayoubengals88
quote:
catholic means universal, and we are all united by a universal, widely held belief in Jesus Christ
The first known use of the word Catholic was in Igantius' letter to the Smyrnaeans in 110AD, and it was used to refer to a single, visible communion, separate from others. So from its earliest use, it was meant to convey a specific set of widely-held beliefs which are much more aligned with those of the RCC than Protestant denominations.
It was later used by Protestants in the way you're using it, which isn't supported historically.
ETA: that's not me saying that I believe Catholics will be the only people in Heaven from the New Covenant, as I dont believe that, nor does the RCC teach that. I was just trying to add context to what the term Catholic means in the historical sense of early Christian writings.
This post was edited on 1/2/23 at 9:36 pm
Posted on 1/2/23 at 9:42 pm to Stitches
quote:I can see why you went to Rome then. You skipped over historic, confessional, Protestantism.
Baptist
That's an interesting verse. I have no idea what it means. Scripture can be clarified by other, clearer, verses of scripture.
So it's pretty clear that the portion of a verse in Colossians is almost a throw away statement. A little blurb. Yeah it's inspired. Yeah it means something... God only knows. Not something to stake your faith on.
Then you have this:
And every priest stands daily at his service, offering repeatedly the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. 12 But when Christ had offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God, 13 waiting from that time until his enemies should be made a footstool for his feet. 14 For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified.
15 And the Holy Spirit also bears witness to us; for after saying,
16 “This is the covenant that I will make with them
after those days, declares the Lord:
I will put my laws on their hearts,
and write them on their minds,”
17 then he adds,
o“I will remember their sins and their lawless deeds no more.”
18 Where there is forgiveness of these, there is no longer any offering for sin.
Again, like has been said, y'all love the side dishes and miss the main course. Becuase for you, it's all about the church.
Te Deums can never take away sins or do anything toward sin, no matter what your church tells you.
Christ has defeated sin and death once for all. Why you wouldn't want to believe this perplexes me.
Die with temporary sin on your conscience and face purgatory because of it? Antithetical to every aspect of the gospel of grace.
Posted on 1/2/23 at 9:45 pm to Stitches
Regarding "catholic"
quote:Yeah, Christians rather than Jews, gnostics, or pagans.
and it was used to refer to a single, visible communion, separate from others.
quote:Big as day faith proclomations like you'd find in The Apostles' Creed. I'm an Apostles' Creed Christian. So are you. That makes us united in the one catholic faith.
from its earliest use, it was meant to convey a specific set of widely-held beliefs
quote:Who adds to the Apostles' Creed? It's not the Protestants.
widely-held beliefs which are much more aligned with those of the RCC than Protestant denominations.
This post was edited on 1/2/23 at 9:48 pm
Posted on 1/2/23 at 10:11 pm to bayoubengals88
quote:
You skipped over historic, confessional, Protestantism.
Which one of the Holy Spirit led reformers got it right then, since they all had different beliefs as to what the true beliefs were?
quote:
So it's pretty clear that the portion of a verse in Colossians is almost a throw away statement
Typical protestant cop-out. Read a very obvious piece of scripture that supports the Catholic point and just choose to ignore it because it goes against what you believe. Almost like your interpretation is based on your beliefs rather than your beliefs on the interpretation...
The mass isn't a new sacrifice for the forgiveness of sins. It's simply a representation of the one sacrifice.
quote:
Again, like has been said, y'all love the side dishes and miss the main course. Becuase for you, it's all about the church
Well the Bible does say that the Church is the pillar of truth, but for Catholics its all about Christ. He gave us the Church to help guide us and teach us though.
quote:
Te Deums can never take away sins or do anything toward sin, no matter what your church tells you.
Christ has defeated sin and death once for all. Why you wouldn't want to believe this perplexes me.
I've already addressed this in an earlier post.
quote:
Die with temporary sin on your conscience and face purgatory because of it? Antithetical to every aspect of the gospel of grace.
I could engage in the scriptural debate for this, but it wouldn't do any good. You'll just read your own interpretation unto them. It's a circular argument honestly.
Posted on 1/2/23 at 10:14 pm to bayoubengals88
quote:
Yeah, Christians rather than Jews, gnostics, or pagans.
Correct, and one only need read the church fathers to know which flavor of Christianity this is, and it definitely isn't Reformed Protestant or whatever you practice. You can say the reformers were returning the church to what the apostles and early church believed, but the Protestant beliefs are overwhelmingly absent in the church fathers writings.
quote:
Big as day faith proclomations like you'd find in The Apostles' Creed. I'm an Apostles' Creed Christian. So are you. That makes us united in the one catholic faith
Again, when Ignatius used the word Catholic, he wasn't referring to the 20,000 Trinitarian denominations that wouldn't exist for another couple thousand years.
quote:
Who adds to the Apostles' Creed? It's not the Protestants.
Well the Protestant churches and their beliefs pretty much didn't exist when the Apostles Creed was created, so I'm not sure what you mean by adding to it.
This post was edited on 1/2/23 at 10:22 pm
Posted on 1/2/23 at 10:27 pm to Stitches
quote:I see this a lot. It’s lazy.
Which one of the Holy Spirit led reformers got it right then, since they all had different beliefs as to what the true beliefs were?
They likely held 95% of their beliefs in common. There was probably more commonly held beliefs among Luther, Calvin, and Cranmer than in most centuries prior to the Reformation.
They disagreed about finer points of doctrine that are not essential for salvation.
The true beliefs according to the Lutherans, Anglicans, and Reformed are found in the Augsburg Confession, 39 Articles, and Belgic Confessions.
Amazingly, you can go through those documents with a fine tooth comb and find that they blend together. Did you never know this or has your conversion made you forget?
There’s enough there for a solid front. The Catholics at the time knew what to oppose. That’s for sure.
quote:I do it with verses that are obscure and self admittedly difficult. You do it with verses that provide the clearest of gospel truths.
Typical protestant cop-out. Read a very obvious piece of scripture that supports the Catholic point and just choose to ignore it because it goes against what you believe.
quote:
The mass isn't a new sacrifice for the forgiveness of sins. It's simply a representation of the one sacrifice.
I never said it was. I was talking about Te Deums. However, the mass is effectual, though it should not be considered effectual. Missing mass brings grave consequences, but it shouldn’t. There are only two commandments. Participate in weekly communion or go to purgatory ain’t one of them.
quote:You abandoned him long ago. Severe judge that he is (according to Leo).
He gave us the Church to help guide us and teach us though.
Posted on 1/2/23 at 10:37 pm to Stitches
quote:Such as?
You can say the reformers were returning the church to what the apostles and early church believed, but the Protestant beliefs are overwhelmingly absent in the church fathers writings.
quote:
Again, when Ignatius used the word Catholic, he wasn't referring to the 20,000 Trinitarian denominations that wouldn't exist for another couple thousand years.
This makes no sense. He probably wouldn’t see us as any different than him based on the core beliefs that we cling to.
quote:
Well the Protestant churches and their beliefs pretty much didn't exist when the Apostles Creed was created, so I'm not sure what you mean by adding to it.
There’s no way you missed my point here.
Catholicism and it’s monstrous catechism includes a billion additions to the simple faith of the apostles. Protestants don’t. Preaching and poverty was the rallying cry of the Waldensians and many other medieval reform movements. Why? Because of the terrible abuses of the church that bound the consciences of men.
Protestants preach truths that are consistent with apostolic Christianity where Rome adds and binds, adds and binds.
To the point that you can purchase an indulgence to lessen time of a loved one in purgatory. That’s in the Apostles’ Creed? That concept is in Christ's teachings?
Posted on 1/2/23 at 10:38 pm to Godfather1
Was he the Woke Pope?
Posted on 1/2/23 at 10:43 pm to bayoubengals88
Posted on 1/2/23 at 10:53 pm to bayoubengals88
quote:
No way!
Yes way!
Proven by the historical record.
Have you read the book? No? Then you don't know what you're talking about.
Posted on 1/2/23 at 10:56 pm to bayoubengals88
quote:
I see this a lot. It’s lazy.
It's not lazy, it's the truth.
quote:
They disagreed about finer points of doctrine that are not essential for salvation
This is lazy.
Luther taught free-will and that grace is resistible. Calvin believed that free will was gone permanently because God is completely sovereign, and thus His grace is irresistible.
They kind of agreed on predestination, but Calvin believed that Christ died only for the elect ("limited atonement"), while Luther believed that Christ died for all humanity. Calvin also believed that God predestined people to Hell, which is entirely unbiblical.
Those are pretty big differences.
quote:
There are only two commandments.
There are 10. Jesus gave 2 as being the most important, but they basically summarize the first 3 and last 6
quote:.
You abandoned him long ago.
On the contrary, I've never been closer to Him. I wonder what Paul would think about these man-made religions floating about the world today.
This post was edited on 1/2/23 at 11:19 pm
Posted on 1/2/23 at 11:10 pm to bayoubengals88
quote:
Such as?
Beliefs pertaining to apostolic succession, baptismal regeneration, infallibility of ecumenical councils and the church itself (rather than sola scriptura), denominationalism, Deuterocanonical being scripture, primacy of Rome, real presence in Eucharist...just to name a few.
quote:
This makes no sense. He probably wouldn’t see us as any different than him based on the core beliefs that we cling to
I disagree since he supported Romes' view on a lot of the things I mentioned above...but I know what you're saying and I also do agree at the same time. Thats where the fullness of the faith discussion comes into play.
quote:
Catholicism and it’s monstrous catechism includes a billion additions to the simple faith of the apostles. Protestants preach truths that are consistent with apostolic Christianity where Rome adds and binds, adds and binds.
It doesn't add anything. The CCC simply explains in a ton of detail what the Church teaches and why. Again, how can you truly believe this when the apostles of the apostles preach things mentioned in my first point above that align with the RCC teachings?
quote:
To the point that you can purchase an indulgence to lessen time of a loved one in purgatory.
The RCC has never supported the "buying" of indulgences. That is a myth.
This post was edited on 1/2/23 at 11:14 pm
Posted on 1/3/23 at 7:30 am to Stitches
The Council of Trent banned the office of indulgence seller. Therefore it previously condoned the practice.
Good day to you all. I will go read my heretical BCP and probably go to hell for loving Christ.
Good day to you all. I will go read my heretical BCP and probably go to hell for loving Christ.
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