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Started By
Message
re: "Please do not call Russia the aggressor in their war with Ukraine."
Posted on 2/23/25 at 7:19 am to SlowFlowPro
Posted on 2/23/25 at 7:19 am to SlowFlowPro
quote:
That's objectively untrue.
The Rada voted earlier in 2013 at over 90% support of EU integration.
Crimea and Donbas voted over 90% to join Russia and your point is?????
1
Posted on 2/23/25 at 7:26 am to TheShmoo
If by "aggressor" you mean totally unprovoked attack, you're correct.
Posted on 2/23/25 at 7:55 am to NC_Tigah
quote:
, the EU broke off dialogue.
What?
quote:
He said at a press conference after the Eastern Partnership summit in Vilnius on Friday that the EU would continue its dialog with its Ukrainian partners "on the key principles of mutual respect, transparency, and individual and collective ownership."
quote:
29.11.2013
LINK
That was after the EU summit in Vilnius, after Putin flexed and threatened Ukraine if they signed the EU agreement.
quote:
"The EU is apparently unprepared to help us financially to the extent we need to escape a financial crisis. Meanwhile, Russia is threatening us with trade wars," it says. "As a result, we have suspended preparations for the signing of an association agreement with the EU."
quote:
An apologetic Ukrainian political analyst, Vadym Karasyov, tells the Ukrainian version of Russian tabloid Komsomolskaya Pravda, external that "we have suspended the talks, not European integration". He argues that "an association with the EU currently entails big losses on Russian markets" and adds that Kiev should now try and "allay Russian fears that a free trade zone between Ukraine and the EU carries economic risks for the Kremlin".
quote:
he adds that "Ukraine's fate" was decided at a secret meeting between Ukrainian President Viktor Yanukovych and his Russian counterpart, Vladimir Putin.
quote:
Writing in Nezavisimaya Gazeta, external, Tatiana Ivzhenko recalls that the text of the agreement between Kiev and Brussels "was prepared over many years and was fully approved by the Ukrainian side". She says the Ukrainian U-turn came after "three secret meetings" between Mr Yanukovych and Mr Putin. "Europe was shocked by the instantaneous change of Kiev's foreign policy vector and linked it to pressure from Moscow," she writes.
quote:
"It was an impressive move - like stealing a bride at the altar, says a Russian federal official source jokingly,"
quote:
22 November 2013
LINK
quote:
Ukraine's President Viktor Yanukovych was later quoted by AFP as saying Ukraine "will work further on this path... to EU integration" - although it is not clear how this will now be achieved.
Stefan Fuele, European commissioner for enlargement, cancelled a trip to Kiev after news of the decision broke.
He had been due to travel to the Ukrainian capital for the second time this week on Thursday.
quote:
21 November 2013
LINK
Nothing contemporary indicates EU "broke off dialogue". In fact, I just cited a story where the EU Commissioner working on the Ukraine deal was set to travel to Ukraine to negotiate further and cancelled when the rug was pulled. Even the Russian commentators describe it as "stealing a bride at the altar", which does not indicate a separation from EU and Ukraine in terms of dialogue.
Posted on 2/23/25 at 7:55 am to trinidadtiger
quote:
Crimea and Donbas voted over 90% to join Russia
When?
Posted on 2/23/25 at 7:57 am to SlowFlowPro
quote:
When?
March 16 2014
quote:
The official result from the Autonomous Republic of Crimea was a 97 percent vote for integration of the region into the Russian Federation, with an 83 percent voter turnout, and from Sevastopol there was also a 97 percent vote for integration with Russia, with an 89 percent voter turnout.[a]
Posted on 2/23/25 at 8:04 am to memphisplaya
quote:
It’s not, but I’m sure you’ll give a novel out of your arse why it is.
No, I'll just post data:
Parliament passes statement on Ukraine’s aspirations for European integration
quote:
Feb. 22, 2013
quote:
A total of 315 of the 349 MPs registered in the sitting hall supported the document on Friday.
The draft document reads that the Verkhovna Rada “within its powers, will ensure that the recommendations concerning the signing of the Association Agreement between Ukraine and the EU, which are stipulated in the resolutions of the European Parliament and the conclusions of the Council of the EU approved on December 10, 2012, at a meeting of the EU foreign ministers, will be fulfilled.”
You said:
quote:
a democratically elected gov and one that wanted to build a relationship with Russia economically instead of the European Union.
Make that work with the above vote by the Rada. That was not a vote to support Russian economic integration, but the opposite.
quote:
He ponied up to Russia instead of the EU. This pissed off the globalist.
"He" is not "the government", and it pissed off Ukrainians.
quote:
Western Ukraine= pro EU
EasternUkraine/Donbas = pro Russia
In 2013, there was polling done where even the Eastern part of Ukraine favored integration with EU. This polling was likely done before Russia inserted its pro-Russian clandestine operatives in the Donbas to create the later conflicts we saw in the region
Posted on 2/23/25 at 8:04 am to SDVTiger
quote:
March 16 2014
As expected, an irrelevant date to the discussion being had.
Posted on 2/23/25 at 8:06 am to SlowFlowPro
Sorry you dont like the facts. Im straight down the middle giving it to you as a straight shooter
I have no dog in this fight
Sound familiar?
I have no dog in this fight
Sound familiar?
Posted on 2/23/25 at 8:08 am to SDVTiger
quote:
Sorry you dont like the facts.
It's not about a like or dislike.
I referenced 2013.
quote:
Sound familiar?
If you're referencing me, you're doing a bad job because you're ignoring posting relevant facts.
Posted on 2/23/25 at 8:10 am to SlowFlowPro
quote:
It's not about a like or dislike.
I referenced 2013.
Thats wonderful. You asked about the vote and i gave you the facts
quote:
If you're referencing me, you're doing a bad job because you're ignoring posting relevant facts
I gave you exact facts
Posted on 2/23/25 at 8:12 am to SDVTiger
quote:
Thats wonderful. You asked about the vote and i gave you the facts
Yes and I said that vote was irrelevant to the conversation, as I expected when I asked the question
quote:
I gave you exact facts
Exact facts? Yes
Relevant facts? No
The point of the question was to show the irrelevancy of his point to the discussion being had.
Posted on 2/23/25 at 8:15 am to SlowFlowPro
quote:
Yes and I said that vote was irrelevant to the conversation, as I expected when I asked the question
Well what does that have to do with the facts
The vote was March 16 2014 and was over 90% for Russia
Those are the facts and Im just straight shooting them
Posted on 2/23/25 at 8:22 am to SDVTiger
quote:
Well what does that have to do with the facts
Relevancy
What do you have from 2013?
Posted on 2/23/25 at 8:24 am to SlowFlowPro
quote:
What do you have from 2013?
Nothing the vote was March 16 2014 and was over 90% for Russia
Facts are facts
Posted on 2/23/25 at 8:25 am to SDVTiger
quote:
Nothing th
There we go. I'll continue to wait to see if anyone has relevant data (ie, from 2013
Posted on 2/23/25 at 8:33 am to SlowFlowPro
Thats great but you cant deny facts
Posted on 2/23/25 at 8:40 am to memphisplaya
quote:
In 2014 it was a coup led by our own CIA that overturned a democratically elected gov and one that wanted to build a relationship with Russia economically instead of the European Union. . Then we installed our puppet gov, got In bed with the Azov Battalion and the puppet gov began shelling the Donbas areas of Ukraine, which are largely the Russian speaking/pro Russia areas of Ukraine. Then they had two peace agreements but Angela Merkel, who I call Droopy, revealed they never intended to abide by those peace accords. It was to buy time to build up the Ukrainian army until Putin had enough and moved In .
So anyone saying Ukraine didn’t start it is both right and wrong. We started it/Ukraine fired the first shots
The installed Ukraine government also threatened to end the lease on Russia’s deep seaport at Sevastopol in Crimea. I think that was the major catalyst for Russian movement into the region.
Posted on 2/23/25 at 8:41 am to SDVTiger
quote:
Thats great but you cant deny facts
I never denied the validity of your facts, only the relevancy.
Posted on 2/23/25 at 8:45 am to Antonio Moss
quote:
The installed Ukraine government also threatened to end the lease on Russia’s deep seaport at Sevastopol in Crimea. I think that was the major catalyst for Russian movement into the region.
Oh Putin did seem to miscalculate the effects of his actions in November of 2013, but I have to imagine Obama had already assured him we would not get involved in that further aggression by Russia, as to not further escalate the mess created in response to Yanukovych (either working as a Russian puppet or due to Russian pressure) unilaterally pulling out of EU trade talks and signing a highly unpopular trade deal with Russia.
Obama made it known he was not going to get the US involved in this conflict. No way Russia invades Ukraine without assurances of this diplomatically as well.
Posted on 2/23/25 at 8:49 am to SlowFlowPro
quote:
Obama made it known he was not going to get the US involved in this conflict. No way Russia invades Ukraine without assurances of this diplomatically as well.
That was a huge eff up by Obama. Cannot just signal that there will be no resistance.
It emboldened Putin to continue with bigger plans.
Which is why Trump signaling the lack of interest to resist is no better.
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