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re: Planned Parenthood keeps saying 3% of their income is from abortions
Posted on 2/2/17 at 10:24 am to ballscaster
Posted on 2/2/17 at 10:24 am to ballscaster
The hypothetical is being criticized because of the inference made based on the choice. The entire point of the hypothetical is to prove the alleged hypocrisy of those who claim to be pro-life by their choice of a singular, born child over multiple fertilized embryos. The assumption is that a person who picks the born child doesn't believe that the embryos have value, or at least not as much as the child they choose to save, therefore they either don't really believe the mantra they proclaim about saving the unborn or that they don't take their belief in their value seriously.
There are multiple problems with this situation, the first being that it's intended to illicit an emotional response which is supposed to outweigh the rational knowledge of value of the embryos. In reality, there isn't a "right" answer because the hypothetical is meant to show how backwards or cruel the pro-lifer is regardless of the choice. Choose the born child and you are a hypocrite. Choose the embryos and you are a monster. What this leads to is an opinion being drawn about the person making the choice but it doesn't say anything about the actual value of both the embryos and the born child.
Secondly, the situation does not account for the natural tendency of the chooser to make the least harmful decision based on many factors like pain and suffering (the born child would have a lot where the embryos wouldn't have any); the suffering of the ones related to the born child vs. the embryos which have not yet been loved or cared for; or that the born child would likely live if saved while the embryos may not all be used or survive even if saved from the burning house. Again, the choice to do the least amount of harm is the natural tendency, and it's natural for a person to choose the born child in such a situation without violating the rational understanding of life of the embryos. The same situation could be altered to use family vs. strangers, friends vs. enemies, or some other variation meant to disprove the notion that all lives have value. A crisis hypothetical only reveals an individuals emotional biases, not their rational understanding.
Lastly, the hypothetical seeks to put saving embryos that are going to die in a fire without intervention on the same footing as killing embryos in a womb that would otherwise live. It tries to prove a point by showing how a person would react in a crisis situation where one life dies and another lives and ignores a situation where both lives could live without a choice to change it. It's the difference between doing harm and offering aid.
There are multiple problems with this situation, the first being that it's intended to illicit an emotional response which is supposed to outweigh the rational knowledge of value of the embryos. In reality, there isn't a "right" answer because the hypothetical is meant to show how backwards or cruel the pro-lifer is regardless of the choice. Choose the born child and you are a hypocrite. Choose the embryos and you are a monster. What this leads to is an opinion being drawn about the person making the choice but it doesn't say anything about the actual value of both the embryos and the born child.
Secondly, the situation does not account for the natural tendency of the chooser to make the least harmful decision based on many factors like pain and suffering (the born child would have a lot where the embryos wouldn't have any); the suffering of the ones related to the born child vs. the embryos which have not yet been loved or cared for; or that the born child would likely live if saved while the embryos may not all be used or survive even if saved from the burning house. Again, the choice to do the least amount of harm is the natural tendency, and it's natural for a person to choose the born child in such a situation without violating the rational understanding of life of the embryos. The same situation could be altered to use family vs. strangers, friends vs. enemies, or some other variation meant to disprove the notion that all lives have value. A crisis hypothetical only reveals an individuals emotional biases, not their rational understanding.
Lastly, the hypothetical seeks to put saving embryos that are going to die in a fire without intervention on the same footing as killing embryos in a womb that would otherwise live. It tries to prove a point by showing how a person would react in a crisis situation where one life dies and another lives and ignores a situation where both lives could live without a choice to change it. It's the difference between doing harm and offering aid.
Posted on 2/2/17 at 10:25 am to FooManChoo
quote:You keep walking right into my point. If abortion is murder, why are you on an Internet forum and not somewhere where you can be useful? Abortion is murder!!!
On an internet forum, there isn't much that can be done other than argue points with words.
quote:You won't even block the door with your friends. It's because you know it isn't murder.
You must live in some other reality if you think that because I don't pull out a gun and shoot an abortion doctor or a mother walking into an abortion clinic that I don't consider abortion murder.
quote:"Abortion is murder" is the talking point. "No it isn't, dumb arse," isn't a talking point.
That's just your favorite talking point in this discussion because you can't understand how someone can believe it is murder and not use force to stop it (or maybe you can and you're just trolling).
quote:Your position that abortion is murder is indefensible, and you know it, so you accuse me of trolling to feel better about yourself. Just like you call abortion people murderers for the same reason. frick your feelings.
I'm slowly coming to the realization that you are trolling.
quote:You need so badly to feel better about yourself that you want the government to violate the Bill of Rights. Gross.
I support representatives who wish to limit or abolish the practice and who seek to do so through legislation and through court nominations/confirmations. I hope that ridiculous ruling that abortion is protected by "privacy" gets overturned and either abolished completely or left to the states to decide, so that those who don't wish to participate in genocide can opt out. At that point, where abortion is illegal, it isn't her choice to decide. At least not without the prospect of imprisonment.
I'm not trolling you. I'm owning you.
Posted on 2/2/17 at 10:26 am to FooManChoo
quote:No it doesn't. It boils down to whether it's any of your business. It isn't. So you have no argument.
The argument boils down to whether or not an unborn child is considered a person and whether or not it is considered alive.
Posted on 2/2/17 at 10:27 am to ShortyRob
quote:Do it for me.
Define "a lot" and then, let us know how you know that this number is motivated primarily by simple sexist desire to control women.
Posted on 2/2/17 at 10:27 am to FooManChoo
TLDR; which one would you save first?
Posted on 2/2/17 at 10:27 am to anc
quote:
We know that the average cost of an abortion is, conservatively, around 450 dollars.
This is amazing. You're telling me my root canal was twice as expensive as an abortion?!?! My GOD!
Posted on 2/2/17 at 10:28 am to BlackAdam
quote:
Now, if you truly believe, qualitatively, that human life begins at conception and is equally as valuable as born, conscious life, you would presumably choose to save the rack full of fetuses/fertilized eggs. After all, doing so would be like saving the little girl one hundred times over. And yet, I've never had anyone who I've discussed this with state that their choice would be to save the eggs/fetuses. Why is that? It's because, when it comes down to it, they don't actually believe that life at conception is qualitatively equal to born life. Note that this in no way argues that there's NO value to the fertilized eggs/fetuses. But, it certainly argues that on a scale of importance/value, they're substantially lower.
If confronted with a situation such as a fire where I could only save one person, the trapped 5 year or the trapped 60 year old, I can tell you with certainty that I would try to save the 5 year old first.
Your thought experiment is based on the false premise that the fact humans will prioritize in emergency situations means the people they didn't prioritize don't have a right to life.
Oh. And for the record. Your thought experiment isn't new. I was using variations of that exact thought experiment 30 years ago when I was a huge pro-choicer.
Posted on 2/2/17 at 10:29 am to ballscaster
quote:
Define "a lot" and then, let us know how you know that this number is motivated primarily by simple sexist desire to control women. Do it for me.
Your term. You said a lot of pro-life men feel this way.
1%?
5%?
25%?
Posted on 2/2/17 at 10:32 am to ShortyRob
You offered me an assignment. I've delegated it to you. Good luck.
And you save the 5yo because that life is more valuable than the embryos in the jar. It's because they're different. It's because abortion is different from murder. We all know this. That's why the murder argument gets tuned out.
And you save the 5yo because that life is more valuable than the embryos in the jar. It's because they're different. It's because abortion is different from murder. We all know this. That's why the murder argument gets tuned out.
This post was edited on 2/2/17 at 10:33 am
Posted on 2/2/17 at 10:32 am to BlackAdam
quote:
It isn't my fault you can't understand very simple concepts
I understand them just fine. I simply call out their BS.
A "simple" concept doesn't make it a valid one.
1 + 1 = Potato is a simple concept, but it's not a valid one.
Posted on 2/2/17 at 10:33 am to ballscaster
quote:
You offered me an assignment. I've delegated it to you. Good luck.
No problem.
You pulled it out of your arse. There. Done.
I had forgotten that you were one of the pussies who hid after the election.
Carry on POS.
Posted on 2/2/17 at 10:34 am to ballscaster
quote:
And you save the 5yo because that life is more valuable than the embryos in the jar. It's because they're different. It's because abortion is different from murder. We all know this. That's why the murder argument gets tuned out.
Oh. NOW you want to talk? After being a shite head when I asked a simple question?
Yeah. LOL. frick you.
Posted on 2/2/17 at 10:39 am to ShortyRob
Melt
And actually, I wasn't banned for the Les Miles shite that time. I was banned one Saturday night because you were coming onto me and I kept asking you to stop and used colorful language. Flattered but no thanks.
And actually, I wasn't banned for the Les Miles shite that time. I was banned one Saturday night because you were coming onto me and I kept asking you to stop and used colorful language. Flattered but no thanks.
Posted on 2/2/17 at 10:40 am to ballscaster
quote:
That's why the murder argument gets tuned out.
You don't get to tell people what they believe. Shhhh....
Posted on 2/2/17 at 10:40 am to ballscaster
quote:OK. I stand corrected.
I was banned for this at the time.
quote:This is a meaningless line in that "lots" has no meaning other than to the user of the word.
Also, lots of men are angry at women who won't frick them, so that's why they talk about sex in the "abortion is murder" dialogue.
Moreover, it's just another of the many variations of leftist shut down tactics like throwing out the race card or calling someone a bigot.
It amounts to saying, "I impugn your motivation for holding your view, therefore, I no longer have to actually engage with you regarding your view".
Posted on 2/2/17 at 10:46 am to Obi-Wan Tiger
quote:I don't have to. They tell me in their own way, troll.
You don't get to tell people what they believe. Shhhh....
Posted on 2/2/17 at 10:48 am to anc
In any case. Regarding the OP.
The bottom line is, there should be no funding of them because there's no actual reason they SHOULD be federally funded.
The 97% of services they say they provide aren't unique to them. They can be sourced by myriad other entities. If we really feel we need to fund those activities, then, we can direct that money to those entities that don't provide abortion.
That is really the bottom line. Even if legal, there is just no logical reason why the Fed funds abortion providers.
The bottom line is, there should be no funding of them because there's no actual reason they SHOULD be federally funded.
The 97% of services they say they provide aren't unique to them. They can be sourced by myriad other entities. If we really feel we need to fund those activities, then, we can direct that money to those entities that don't provide abortion.
That is really the bottom line. Even if legal, there is just no logical reason why the Fed funds abortion providers.
Posted on 2/2/17 at 10:49 am to ballscaster
You're having a tantrum because people won't let you tell them what they believe. Your problem, not the rest of the world's.
Posted on 2/2/17 at 10:49 am to ShortyRob
quote:...or calling somebody a murderer.
Moreover, it's just another of the many variations of leftist shut down tactics like throwing out the race card or calling someone a bigot.
quote:Yes. Exactly 100% my point. "Abortion is murder" is exactly this.
It amounts to saying, "I impugn your motivation for holding your view, therefore, I no longer have to actually engage with you regarding your view".
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