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re: Nathan Bedford Forest bust to be removed from TN capitol

Posted on 7/21/21 at 12:31 pm to
Posted by GeauxVols
Franklin
Member since Nov 2007
219 posts
Posted on 7/21/21 at 12:31 pm to
quote:

Did Forrest order the killing of surrendering black troops? Yes or no?


He allowed it. Direct order? Maybe. Maybe not. Did Forrest's friends in Memphis want him to "teach a lesson" to the folks at Ft. Pillow?

Did Forrest offer unconditional surrender to all troops prior to the siege of the fort? Yes or no?

So "surrender or die" was commonplace in the Civil War? I must have missed the "no quarter" offers from Union command.

quote:

Was Forrest inside the fort when the majority of the fighting was happening? Yes or no?


This is a failure on his part if he wasn't there to command his troops. Either that or his subordinate commanders were garbage and he still retains the blame.

quote:

Were black soldiers that drowned in the Mississippi River while fleeing counted in the “massacre”? Yes or no?


If their option was to flee or be hacked to death, then I would count them in the total.

Perhaps Forrest would have better served the CSA by harassing Sherman back East and not galivanting around Western Tennessee hacking garrison troops to death.
Posted by Blackie LeBlanc
Member since Apr 2021
244 posts
Posted on 7/21/21 at 12:37 pm to
quote:

And you choose the man who betrayed and fought against his own people?


Forest betrayed and fought against his own people - Americans. Allegiance to a state, instead your country, may have been commonplace then, but was utterly foolish to do so.
Posted by Lima Whiskey
Member since Apr 2013
22594 posts
Posted on 7/21/21 at 12:41 pm to
quote:

but was utterly foolish to do so.


They should have bent to the Federal government, even if it was the wrong thing to do, because the Federal government was so powerful?

Posted by Lima Whiskey
Member since Apr 2013
22594 posts
Posted on 7/21/21 at 12:42 pm to
I’m a Virginian, a Southerner, and then an American.

We’ve been Virginians for four centuries now.

America is younger than we are.
This post was edited on 7/21/21 at 4:52 pm
Posted by hogcard1964
Alabama
Member since Jan 2017
17454 posts
Posted on 7/21/21 at 12:44 pm to
Huh?

What did they do with their bodies?

I'm pretry sure that's illegal.
Posted by Big Scrub TX
Member since Dec 2013
38463 posts
Posted on 7/21/21 at 12:45 pm to
quote:


They should have bent to the Federal government, even if it was the wrong thing to do, because the Federal government was so powerful?
They sure didn't mind wielding the "so powerful" Fedgov's long arm via the Fugitive Slave Act.
Posted by GeauxVols
Franklin
Member since Nov 2007
219 posts
Posted on 7/21/21 at 12:47 pm to
quote:

I’m a Virginian, a Southerner, and then an American.

We’ve been Virginians for four centuries now.


Are you a loyal subject of the Queen of England as well?
Posted by Confederate Brass
Member since Jun 2021
135 posts
Posted on 7/21/21 at 12:49 pm to
and it wasn’t limited to “Wartime propaganda” prior to it was a massive shitton of PRE-War Yankee Propaganda

-What they striped from history books and censored (along w/ the Lying Yankee Media for a almost 2centuries)..and LIED about was the fact that Jim Crow Laws were FORCED upon the South by Abraham Lincoln himself to force ex slaves North because the Factories and Mills were desperate for uneducated labor forces to operate them.  After Yankee labor forces of simpleton White men had been decimated by the Confederacy. 
And YET the Yankee “historians” continue to tell us grand LIE after LIE about how the all powerful and all wicked and penniless Confederacy, who couldn’t take a shite with Yankee Govenors and mayors running the shitshow during Reconstruction..were guilty of creating the:
 •YANKEE CREATED• 
 ....Jim Crow LAWS
literally REVERSING and Lying and distorting the Confederate historical record. It’s Utter corruption in the Yankee NYC publishing cesspool of historical lies.

And Yet,

The South not only had a solid legal foundation for Seceding, (as explicitly outlined by the founding fathers and Thomas Jefferson himself..states the “independent confederacies’” have a Constitutional Right to Secede in the event of 
-Misrepresentation
-No Government investment 
-Over Taxation i.e High Tariffs
-Government Over Reach, etc. 
Sounds Familiar...? It should.
Same thing goes on TODAY

This is what ultimately leads to the 1850 “Missouri Compromise”)...
By the time 1860 rolls around the Southern politicians were left with NO VIABLE ALTERNATIVE, Aside from being extorted by exorbitant Yankee Tariffs(the Yankees "arbitrary and capricious" extortion payments were well underway by 1850)...So by the time 1860 finally rolls around after another decade of Yankee Meddling, Doxxing and Extorting their Livelihoods and culminating in an illegitimate War upon the Confederate States of America. 
-The Confederate’s had an unmistakable & undisputed Legal, Ethical, pragmatic, principled, 
and deeply-personal purpose for Secession.  And yet, many still sought unity even Jubal Early was the last to finally admit it was useless talking with the recalcitrant, repugnant and sanctimonious Yankees once the “Bolsheviks” we’re running the “Civil War-show”. 
The Yankee MEDIApresses of NYC...turned the Civil WAR into an early form of Vaudevillian-esque Agit-Prop Theatre and propaganda. 
In Precisely the same fashion that the novel Uncle Toms Cabin was written by a raving zealot for abolishing slavery, which was immediately sensationalized worldwide leading to multi-millions of copies by 1855. 
Media propaganda and mindwarping has been around for a very very long time and it was weaponized against the Confederacy and it.still.is.to. this.very.day. 
George Soros and Walter Issacson using the cover of The Aspen Institute, orchestrated and inculcated the entire Confederate Hate & Smear Campaign you’ve been witnessing for the last 5 years. They manufactured the current ISIS-like “Confederate Cleansing” that they created by brilliantly getting then DemonicRAT mayor Mitch Landrieu to unilaterally issue his edict to remove 4 Confederate Historical Landmarks in New Orleans. We have the proof proving collusion and that Soros and Issacson orchestrated the entire shitshow including Race-riots, and Astro-turfing City Councils meetings for 2 years. Make NO MISTAKE ABOUT IT..the Confederate Cleansing is 1000% Globalist MANUFACTURED.  

Meanwhile,

Imagine living in a 75% White majority Country... 
• with massive urban metropolises where black democrat politicians have been in total of power for 4 generations NOW,
• in a White Country with more black billionaires and millionaires than 90% of the worlds countries. 
• where blacks are barely 12% of the population YET they commit 52% of all crime and murders same White majority. 
• and the 'Icing on the Cake' is how Farrakhan-esque "FU@K White America" NFL sanctioned salutes are praised by the bankingMediaElite. 
.... and yet millions of brainwashed racist tools are still on the ground SNIVELING like toddlers about....
 "mUh wHiTe sUpEmAcY"...
This post was edited on 7/21/21 at 12:59 pm
Posted by CleverUserName
Member since Oct 2016
16287 posts
Posted on 7/21/21 at 12:50 pm to
quote:

So "surrender or die" was commonplace in the Civil War?


You do know that Grant’s nickname is “Unconditional Surrender Grant” don’t you? He had a pretty big part in Union command don’t you think?

quote:

He allowed it. Direct order? Maybe. Maybe not. Did Forrest's friends in Memphis want him to "teach a lesson" to the folks at Ft. Pillow?


So in order here… unproven, unknown, and innuendo.

quote:

This is a failure on his part if he wasn't there to command his troops.


Which is the position of practically every senior commander in every single notable battle in the Civil War.

Now. Some side thought here… why did federal commanders have the black troops forward? Allowing many of the white soldiers to fight from behind (during the alleged mass surrender) and then flee?
Posted by PJinAtl
Atlanta
Member since Nov 2007
14028 posts
Posted on 7/21/21 at 12:54 pm to
quote:

What did they do with their bodies?

I'm pretry sure that's illegal.

They were going to re-inter them at Elmwood Cemetery in Memphis (their original resting place; the remains were moved to the park in 1904).

However, the Sons of Confederate Veterans stepped in and, with support of the Forrest descendants, are taking responsibility for both the statue and remains and will be moving them to central Tennessee, near Columbia, so that the remains and the statue will stay together.
Posted by AUauditor
Georgia
Member since Sep 2004
1662 posts
Posted on 7/21/21 at 12:54 pm to
I don't necessarily have a problem with the succeeding from the union thing when it was done; it was threatened by many states over many issues since the country's inception. Also, while slavery was an evil institution (even if not as bad as it portrayed today), it was the law-of-the-land in America and had been for centuries all across the world. So, I agree regarding the judgment of these events.

However, in creating the KKK, Forrest was effectively a terrorist against America.
Posted by GeauxVols
Franklin
Member since Nov 2007
219 posts
Posted on 7/21/21 at 1:12 pm to
quote:

You do know that Grant’s nickname is “Unconditional Surrender Grant” don’t you? He had a pretty big part in Union command don’t you think?


I'm not quite sure you're familiar with unconditional surrender. Unconditional surrender does not equal "no quarter given" at least in the context of referencing US Grant. If you can point out similar massacres by Grant, other than those of which he massacred his own troops, then please do so.

quote:

So in order here… unproven, unknown, and innuendo.


Command is a funny thing. Get all of the credit as well as all of the blame. Union commanders typically did not allow massacres to take place on a large scale.

quote:

why did federal commanders have the black troops forward? Allowing many of the white soldiers to fight from behind (during the alleged mass surrender) and then flee?


Not an expert on the Ft Pillow order of battle. I'm not sure why. We are dealing with men in the Union ranks who had similar racial attitudes of supremacy. That very well could have played a role in putting them in the front as cannon fodder.

Y'all know you're about to get some Neo-Confederate spin when "Confederate Brass" shows up to the party.

Posted by Big Scrub TX
Member since Dec 2013
38463 posts
Posted on 7/21/21 at 1:19 pm to
quote:

(even if not as bad as it portrayed today)
Posted by Blackie LeBlanc
Member since Apr 2021
244 posts
Posted on 7/21/21 at 1:22 pm to
quote:

...if it was the wrong thing to do,


But it wasn't.
Posted by GeauxVols
Franklin
Member since Nov 2007
219 posts
Posted on 7/21/21 at 1:23 pm to
quote:

I’m a Virginian, a Southerner, and then an American.

We’ve been Virginians for four centuries now.



I prefer to think of myself as an American, a Tennessean, and a Southerner by default.

My ancestry is too much of a mixed bag to focus on just one state, but does include some early 1600's Virginia folks. It also includes some 1st Alabama Cavalry Unionists (and an unhealthy sprinkling of Secesh as well).
Posted by PJinAtl
Atlanta
Member since Nov 2007
14028 posts
Posted on 7/21/21 at 2:46 pm to
quote:

quote:

(even if not as bad as it portrayed today)


My guess is the post means that the treatment of slaves, in general, wasn't as bad across the board as it is portrayed today, and that much is true.

Is owning another human being horrendous? Yes.

But, not every slave was beaten/whipped/raped/worked until they died in the fields. Did it happen? Yes. Was that the norm? No.

A very uncomfortable truth is that a slave in the 18th and 19th centuries was a capital investment; compare it to a tractor or a combine in today's ranching/farming world if you would like. Are there some ranchers/farmers who run their tractor without oil, skip required maintenance, let it break down and then get another one when it finally blows an engine? Yes. But on average those items are big ticket items that are worth taking care of. The same could be said about slaves. Why are you going to overwork/starve/beat/injure a slave to the point that they are unable to work or provide a service for you? That gains you no ROI and costs you money in the long run.
Posted by Big Scrub TX
Member since Dec 2013
38463 posts
Posted on 7/21/21 at 2:52 pm to
quote:

My guess is the post means that the treatment of slaves, in general, wasn't as bad across the board as it is portrayed today,
It was as bad as portrayed.

quote:


But, not every slave was beaten/whipped/raped/worked until they died in the fields. Did it happen? Yes. Was that the norm? No.
It was very normal to rip slaves from their own families - often with zero notice - for the rest of their lives. It was also very common to essentially rape slaves.
Posted by Bulldogblitz
In my house
Member since Dec 2018
28158 posts
Posted on 7/21/21 at 2:55 pm to
quote:

both the statue and remains and will be moving them to central Tennessee, near Columbia, so that the remains and the statue will stay together.


Until the libs decide that's not appropriate either because it hurts more feelings and demand them removed and the statue melted down and remains sent to space.
Posted by BurntOrangeMan
Dallas TX
Member since May 2021
5628 posts
Posted on 7/21/21 at 3:11 pm to
quote:

They just dug up his and his wife’s bodies a month or so ago.


For the second time at a minimum
Posted by sugar71
NOLA
Member since Jun 2012
9967 posts
Posted on 7/21/21 at 3:15 pm to
quote:

Due to his history, I don't disagree with this at all. However, I do still think it's hard to judge historical figures by the morals of today.
By the standards of his day he was fairly scummy. I'm judging him against his peers.


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