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Started By
Message
Miranda rights for terrorists??
Posted on 12/12/17 at 6:35 am
Posted on 12/12/17 at 6:35 am
Give me a rational argument for why this is even a question.
- we are not trying to prove the guilt/non-guilt of the individual = we are trying to unravel an on-going existential threat to the USA - and to western civilization.
- there is absolutely no doubt - in this instance for sure - that the man is guilty. If he had been successful in his quest, he'd be dead - of his own choice. Along with hordes of innocent Americans.
- the fact he survived his murder/terrorist/suicide intent, is a bonus for us to at least find out if and what connections he may have had to help up prevent the next attack.
- what is the point of a 'trial' = to find out if he should go free or be punished. Suppose the Defense Atty finds some technical irregularity in the way evidence was collected/preserved or finds a witness that heard 'hate speech' during the event such that the whole 'case' collapses and he must be set free with a 'not guilty' verdict.
- and what is the penalty if he is found 'guilty' of 'attempted manslaughter' - out in 10 years?
As for me - I don't give a shite about the 'guilt or non-guilt' verdict from a 'jury of his peers' - this is not a crime!!! this is an ATTACK by a hostile ideology.
Will anyone be satisfied if the NY court system finds him "guilty" and sentences him to the max, but learns nothing about his journey to terrorism?
What is the solution? = have some sort of court to decide if this is an 'attack on humanity' or a commission of a 'crime.' We already do this with the FISA court to allow the government to surveil US citizens.
- we are not trying to prove the guilt/non-guilt of the individual = we are trying to unravel an on-going existential threat to the USA - and to western civilization.
- there is absolutely no doubt - in this instance for sure - that the man is guilty. If he had been successful in his quest, he'd be dead - of his own choice. Along with hordes of innocent Americans.
- the fact he survived his murder/terrorist/suicide intent, is a bonus for us to at least find out if and what connections he may have had to help up prevent the next attack.
- what is the point of a 'trial' = to find out if he should go free or be punished. Suppose the Defense Atty finds some technical irregularity in the way evidence was collected/preserved or finds a witness that heard 'hate speech' during the event such that the whole 'case' collapses and he must be set free with a 'not guilty' verdict.
- and what is the penalty if he is found 'guilty' of 'attempted manslaughter' - out in 10 years?
As for me - I don't give a shite about the 'guilt or non-guilt' verdict from a 'jury of his peers' - this is not a crime!!! this is an ATTACK by a hostile ideology.
Will anyone be satisfied if the NY court system finds him "guilty" and sentences him to the max, but learns nothing about his journey to terrorism?
What is the solution? = have some sort of court to decide if this is an 'attack on humanity' or a commission of a 'crime.' We already do this with the FISA court to allow the government to surveil US citizens.
25
Posted on 12/12/17 at 6:37 am to ChineseBandit58
He just happened to find that package and was putting it in his pocket when it went off.
He is an innocent victim here.
Sincerely,
Slimy defense lawyer
He is an innocent victim here.
Sincerely,
Slimy defense lawyer
Posted on 12/12/17 at 6:37 am to ChineseBandit58
I mean it’s not that difficult to administer First of all.
The main reason is because it’s still an investigation and you really don’t know if that individual is a US citizen or not. Just mirandize and more forward
The main reason is because it’s still an investigation and you really don’t know if that individual is a US citizen or not. Just mirandize and more forward
Posted on 12/12/17 at 6:46 am to Mr.Perfect
quote:
it’s not that difficult to administer First of all.
not talking about ease of the process - I'm talking about his protection from questioning prior to 'trial.'
quote:
because it’s still an investigation
The 'investigation' that follows a Miranda warning is restricted to determining whether or not he did the 'crime.' Nothing involving his past associations matters to the decision a 'jury of his peers' is allowed to hear - and no 'investigation' of those matters is allowed.
quote:
really don’t know if that individual is a US citizen or not.
Doesn't matter whether he is citizen or not - he is a "person" on US soil and that is all that matters.
quote:
Just mirandize and more forward
Move forward to a 'guilty' verdict. Fell all better about that??
Posted on 12/12/17 at 6:54 am to ChineseBandit58
quote:
- we are not trying to prove the guilt/non-guilt of the individual = we are trying to unravel an on-going existential threat to the USA - and to western civilization.
That’s quite a bit of hyperbole, but Miranda has nothing to do with whether you can question someone to unravel this plot. The only remedy for a Miranda violation is that the suspect’s later statements are inadmissible.
quote:
- there is absolutely no doubt - in this instance for sure - that the man is guilty
Any supporter of small government should never say there is “no doubt” someone is guilty, especially not at this stage. It is incumbent on the government to prove this stuff. Either way, as mentioned above if there is no doubt he is guilty then mirandizing him is basically irrelevant.
quote:
Suppose the Defense Atty finds some technical irregularity in the way evidence was collected/preserved or finds a witness that heard 'hate speech' during the event such that the whole 'case' collapses and he must be set free with a 'not guilty' verdict.
This basically never happens. Especially not if there is “no doubt” he is guilty. Either way, we set up a justice system that is meant to restrain the power of the government, that should be something everyone supports.
quote:
Will anyone be satisfied if the NY court system finds him "guilty" and sentences him to the max, but learns nothing about his journey to terrorism
Why on Earth do you think this is even a possibility?
Posted on 12/12/17 at 7:21 am to CorporateTiger
quote:
Why on Earth do you think this is even a possibility?
ou
First - I appreciate your comments - you obviously know a lot more about Miranda than I.
Second, I admit to using "Miranda" as a short-cut for 'criminal justice system'
My concern is that the criminal justice system is not designed to handle terror threats to the US population as a whole. It is only concerned with the guilt/non-guilt of a specific individual for a specific 'crime.' It's only end point is jail or freedom for an individual.
My point is that the fate of the individual is totally irrelevant in the era of global terrorism.
The only thing I am concerned about from this individual is the information he possesses. Whether he rots in jail, serves a token 'sentence' or goes absolute scot free is of no concern to me - The only thing I am concerned with is whether or not we can use information from him to prevent the next terrorist attempt agains the USA - or the next 10 or 20.
If we can trust a FISA court to surveil US citizens, why could we not rely on such a court to deem whether or not a person, citizen or not, is a hostile agent of a foreign ideology whose stated intent is the destruction of western civilization.
Posted on 12/12/17 at 7:25 am to ChineseBandit58
quote:
Doesn't matter whether he is citizen or not -
frightening
quote:
this is not a crime!!! this is an ATTACK by a hostile ideology.
more frightening
Was Timothy McVeigh a criminal? How did Miranda affect the prosecution in that case?
JEEBUS...I am NOT okay with being "not us" in order to respond to "them".
The most existential threat "they" pose is the changing of who we are.
This post was edited on 12/12/17 at 7:29 am
Posted on 12/12/17 at 7:27 am to ChineseBandit58
quote:
The only thing I am concerned about from this individual is the information he possesses.
Regardless of who is holding him or charging him, federal agents will be questioning this guy.
It happens a lot in any case of interest to feds. Random gang member gets arrested on state charges but is a person of interest in drug smuggling? You can bet your bottom dollar the feds will come chat with him. Multiple that times ten or a hundred or more in anything potentially involving terrorism.
Also even if he somehow gets acquitted in NY, he could still face separate federal charges. The bigger question/issue is his right to an attorney. That question is being litigated in the courts right now (just like indefinite detention was).
Anyway, if you ever see a TV show/movie that makes it seem like a Miranda violation ends the court case.... it almost never does.
Posted on 12/12/17 at 7:27 am to BlackHelicopterPilot
quote:
quote:
Doesn't matter whether he is citizen or not -
frightening
Am I wrong about this???
Posted on 12/12/17 at 7:28 am to ChineseBandit58
quote:
Am I wrong about this???
very
Posted on 12/12/17 at 7:29 am to BlackHelicopterPilot
Side note, but seeing people who I assume are conservatives bashing criminal defense lawyers is worrying.
The right to an attorney is part of the bedrock of the rights that limit political prosecutions. Criminal defense is one of the most quintessential “small government” roles in our society.
The right to an attorney is part of the bedrock of the rights that limit political prosecutions. Criminal defense is one of the most quintessential “small government” roles in our society.
Posted on 12/12/17 at 7:29 am to CorporateTiger
quote:
Side note, but seeing people who I assume are conservatives bashing criminal defense lawyers is worrying. The right to an attorney is part of the bedrock of the rights that limit political prosecutions. Criminal defense is one of the most quintessential “small government” roles in our society.
Posted on 12/12/17 at 7:30 am to ChineseBandit58
The power of linguistics is strong. I have long believed that, after 9-11, many of our politicians salivated at the thought of creating a separate, legal paradigm where the Bill of Rights was inapplicable. You call something terrorism and rights don't apply. That is a scary proposition in my opinion, because who gets to define what terrorism is? If it were up to American progressives, alt-right speeches and protests would be considered terrorism. Any gun crime would likely be considered terrorism. Arbitrarily restricting the rights of those accused of terrorism, when there isn't even a firm definition of terrorism, is dangerous.
Posted on 12/12/17 at 7:35 am to BlackHelicopterPilot
quote:
The most existential threat "they" pose is the changing of who we are.
This is true.
Posted on 12/12/17 at 7:36 am to SCLibertarian
It’s almost as if secret courts generating warrants (and/or warrantless collection of information) could be used by a sitting President to spy on the opposing party’s candidate
Just food for thought.
Just food for thought.
Posted on 12/12/17 at 7:40 am to ChineseBandit58
my thoughts on this type of situation?
the Red on the battery is Positive & the Black is Negative...
I mean, just in case waterboarding doen't work fast enough
the Red on the battery is Positive & the Black is Negative...
I mean, just in case waterboarding doen't work fast enough
Posted on 12/12/17 at 7:41 am to ChineseBandit58
Terrorists have no rights.
Posted on 12/12/17 at 7:43 am to ChineseBandit58
Not knowing anything about him at the time of arrest it is best to read him the Miranda rights just in case he is a citizen so he can't get off on some bullshite technicality. If he would be an American citizen like it or not the Constitution is a shield not a sword regardless of guilt he would have a right to a defense and fair trial. That being said he is on an immigrant visa and no doubt he is fricked and I am sure will be investigated and interrogated throughly while he spends the rest of his pathetic life behind bars.
Posted on 12/12/17 at 7:45 am to Crimson Wraith
That’s all well and good until what you believe suddenly becomes “domestic terrorism.”
This post was edited on 12/12/17 at 7:46 am
Posted on 12/12/17 at 7:47 am to ChineseBandit58
Anyone arrested inside the United States needs to be Mirandized.
/thread
/thread
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