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re: Let's suppose Trump is right. All countries come to the table...

Posted on 4/5/25 at 4:37 pm to
Posted by RogerTheShrubber
Juneau, AK
Member since Jan 2009
297270 posts
Posted on 4/5/25 at 4:37 pm to
quote:



What's this new nonsense ?




Everything in this chart was bullshite, mislabeled and incorrect. And Trump didnt know any better.

This is your leadership
This post was edited on 4/5/25 at 4:38 pm
Posted by SlowFlowPro
With populists, expect populism
Member since Jan 2004
466922 posts
Posted on 4/5/25 at 4:37 pm to
quote:

Can a country use tariffs and trade restrictions to "benefit more" or "take advantage of" or "win" in trade with another country? Use whatever terminology that makes you feel best.


Milton Friedman can answer for me

quote:

The same thing has been true over the years of the continuous argument by the oil interests that we ought to have, at one point, an oil import quota, or percentage depletion, or all sorts of other things on national security grounds. I believe that is an excuse and not a reason.

What about the argument of unfair competition? What about the argument that the Japanese dump their goods below cost? As a consumer, all I can say is the more dumping the better. If the Japanese government is so ill-advised as to tax its taxpayers in order to send to us, at below cost, TV sets and other things, why should we as a nation refuse reverse foreign aid?

What about the problem of the price of the U.S. dollar, the weakening of the dollar abroad? It is an artificial problem to which we should pay no attention. The market will set a price, let it. So far as we as a nation are concerned, the important thing is to get our internal house in order. If we followed policies at home which would eliminate inflation, and provide the basis for sound and healthy economic growth, the price of the dollar in foreign exchange markets would take care of itself. If we follow policies as we have been that produce a steadily rising inflation, or unsteadily rising inflation, I should say, ups and downs, well then, of course, the dollar is going to become worth less at home and it will be worth less abroad than it otherwise would be.

I come again to the problem of farm policy here, agricultural policy. That is an area which has been very intimately related to foreign trade. You will remember some years back when there was a great scandal about the extent to which the American taxpayers subsidized the Soviet Union by selling agricultural products at a price below the domestic price. I have already expressed the view that there is no national interest whatsoever in farm price supports or in government attempts to manipulate the price of farm products anymore than there is in government attempts to manipulate the price of steel, or of any other product. But it's much more fundamental than that. Agriculture is one of our major export industries. It is an area in which we have been incredibly efficient, in which we can produce goods and out compete almost everybody in the rest of the world. There is nothing that would be in the greater self-interest of the agricultural producer than for the U.S. to have complete free trade. That would generate a greater supply of dollars abroad to produce a better market for U.S. products.

I submit to you that the movement toward having farm price supports is a very shortsighted movement. What will be its results? It can only have the effect of either destroying export markets or requiring the government once again to subsidize exports. If we have a high artificial price at home, which is above the world price, nobody in the world is going to buy American products unless somebody or other sells these to them at the world price. Hence, a system of artificially high domestic agricultural prices necessarily requires a system of government subsidies for the export of wheat abroad.

I submit to you that that's not in the interest of the American consumer, it's not in the interest of the American taxpayer, and in the longer run it is not in the interest of the American farmer.


quote:

I believe that the right policy for us would be to act like the great nation we are, to say we are not going to determine what we do on the basis of what Hong Kong and Korea and Japan do. We are a great nation and we are unilaterally and on our own going to move to remove every barrier to international trade. We are not going to do it overnight. People have made plans on the basis of existing tariffs. Let's take a five-year period, or a ten-year period, that's less important. But let's each year reduce by one-fifth every tariff barrier, eliminate every subsidy to exports by one-fifth, and over a five-year period get to a period at which we have no tariffs and no subsidies to exports. We should do that and we should also completely stay out of the market of foreign exchange. Your government on your behalf has been speculating in the foreign exchange markets for the past seven years and has cost you, up until last year and not counting the speculation of this year, $550 million of losses on those transactions. Money down the drain. Let's stop that.


quote:

In the same way, the U.S. has been a great nation and we have prospered despite the tariffs and despite the restrictions on trade. But we could set a great example to the world and benefit the world as a whole, contribute not only to prosperity but to peace around the world, by moving in the direction of free trade. Because once again, go back to the British experience, the century of free trade was also the century of the greatest international peace. Why? Because if you eliminate government from these matters you enable individuals to deal with one another. If you introduce protection, tariffs, restrictions on trade, they become matters for government-to-government wrangling and they are an enormous source of division. So in the name of both prosperity and world peace there are few steps that we could take which would contribute more than a complete move toward free trade. Thank you.
Posted by SlowFlowPro
With populists, expect populism
Member since Jan 2004
466922 posts
Posted on 4/5/25 at 4:38 pm to
quote:

The likelihood of a meaningful decline in U.S. geoeconomic power is much more realistic over the next five to 10 years — especially if the U.S. doesn’t get its fiscal house in order or U.S. policymaking gives other countries strong incentives to consider alternatives.

There are several reasons why uncertainty may surge in 2025. First, the political situation in the U.S. and Europe is volatile. Second, the fiscal situation in the U.S. is increasingly concerning. If unaddressed, a fiscal reckoning is unavoidable — and it will be fast and painful.


Most countries look to be facing a period of economic decline.

The question is who is going to make ground on us in that period?

Certainly not Europe or China.

So we're down to...Brazil? India? Saudi Arabia? You think they can become the world's dominant economy in the next 5-10 years?
Posted by Turbeauxdog
Member since Aug 2004
24144 posts
Posted on 4/5/25 at 4:38 pm to
quote:

Sowell is alive to experience the, "barriers and switching costs that would make the market completely incapable of responding to market factors," as you originally stated, and still agrees with Friedman's point.


Cool so link where he discussed it.

quote:

So he's wrong, too, or are you arguing he doesn't understand "barriers and switching costs that would make the market completely incapable of responding to market factors." ?


Argument entered without evidence.
Posted by David_DJS
Member since Aug 2005
21855 posts
Posted on 4/5/25 at 4:39 pm to
quote:

Our economic status/rankings, along with the dominance of USD, matter more than opinion.

Is it possible to rank #1 and still be disadvantaged in trade (or leave money on the table)? I'm not making the argument we are disadvantaged. I'm making the argument that because we're #1, have the best economy, etc., doesn't mean your argument is anything more than an opinion, too.
Posted by Turbeauxdog
Member since Aug 2004
24144 posts
Posted on 4/5/25 at 4:39 pm to
quote:

Everything in this chart was bullshite, mislabeled and incorrect. And Trump didnt know any better.


Detailed analysis forthcoming?

I've read the critiques, they summarize to "we don't like it"
Posted by Turbeauxdog
Member since Aug 2004
24144 posts
Posted on 4/5/25 at 4:40 pm to
quote:

So we're down to...Brazil? India? Saudi Arabia? You think they can become the world's dominant economy in the next 5-10 years?


Why are we setting our expectations at the performance of shitholes?
Posted by RogerTheShrubber
Juneau, AK
Member since Jan 2009
297270 posts
Posted on 4/5/25 at 4:42 pm to
quote:



I've read the critiques, they summarize to "we don't like it"


Its based on nonsense. this is how the administration arrived at these tariffs and decided "we were getting screwed."

At some point yall will get tired of being abused by these amateurs.
Posted by SlowFlowPro
With populists, expect populism
Member since Jan 2004
466922 posts
Posted on 4/5/25 at 4:42 pm to
quote:

Why are we setting our expectations at the performance of shitholes


If you had read, I'm not.

The point was that we are in no threat of being replaced by those shite holes, and they would be the only options in his scenario to do so.

It was pointing out the absurdity of his argument. I hope I don't have to break this down anymore simply for you.
Posted by SlowFlowPro
With populists, expect populism
Member since Jan 2004
466922 posts
Posted on 4/5/25 at 4:43 pm to
quote:

I've read the critiques, they summarize to "we don't like it"


You've missed the critiques that the numbers are based in trade deficits and not tariffs? I can link you the critiques if you need those
Posted by RobbBobb
Member since Feb 2007
33408 posts
Posted on 4/5/25 at 4:45 pm to
quote:

Certainly not Europe or China.

Like I said, stay in your lane
quote:

We forecast that China will be the world’s largest economy for only 21 years before the US overtakes again in 2057. And by 2081 India will have overtaken the US. How does this affect geopolitics?

Its simply a matter of population numbers. And the fact that we are just handing it to these 2 nations on a platter
quote:

In a sense, being the world’s largest economy in dollar terms means little. China became the largest in purchasing power terms as long ago as 2017, based on IMF data, and there are no cups or gold medals for achieving first place. But the level of dollar GDP does give an indication of a country’s economic and potential military power, and of its international significance.

LINK
Posted by northshorebamaman
Cochise County AZ
Member since Jul 2009
37577 posts
Posted on 4/5/25 at 4:50 pm to
quote:

Indeed. I use that as a frame of reference to tell them that China is subsidizing their own purchase, which potentially creates wealth for them.
Unfortunately, that's too abstract for a lot of people. And I don't say that to dig anyone. It's just a sad fact.
Posted by David_DJS
Member since Aug 2005
21855 posts
Posted on 4/5/25 at 4:50 pm to
Friedman is mostly right. However, I don't think he has given enough consideration to the evolution of economies or markets. Is it possible to use tariffs/restrictions (or subsidies at home) to make a country dependent on another in some market/technology, and then exact "surplus" profit over some period of time, particularly when manufacturing is capital intensive? I think so.
Posted by SlowFlowPro
With populists, expect populism
Member since Jan 2004
466922 posts
Posted on 4/5/25 at 4:51 pm to
quote:

We forecast that China will be the world’s largest economy for only 21 years

Means little for the discussion.

quote:

In a sense, being the world’s largest economy in dollar terms means little.

Correct



When you take per capita into account, their ranking tumbles a long way.
Posted by RogerTheShrubber
Juneau, AK
Member since Jan 2009
297270 posts
Posted on 4/5/25 at 4:52 pm to
quote:


Unfortunately, that's too abstract for a lot of people. And I don't say that to dig anyone. It's just a sad fact.


I agree, but I am at a loss to actually explain that here.


Posted by SlowFlowPro
With populists, expect populism
Member since Jan 2004
466922 posts
Posted on 4/5/25 at 4:54 pm to
quote:

. Is it possible to use tariffs/restrictions (or subsidies at home) to make a country dependent on another in some market/technology, and then exact "surplus" profit over some period of time, particularly when manufacturing is capital intensive? I think so.


This would require a unique set of circumstances.

The producer country would have to have exclusive production ability. That would be the real cause of the power imbalance. How would their tariff policy, making US exports into that country, create the power imbalance spoken of?

Chinese tariffs aren't why China is making the "national security" products like antibiotics and more steel. Labor/production costs being lower in those countries is why.

Taiwanese tariffs aren't why Taiwan is the leader in high-end chip manufacturing (I do laugh when people say we need to bring this "back", when we've never really had it). Them basically creating this market and being ahead of everyone for forging this industry is why.
Posted by RobbBobb
Member since Feb 2007
33408 posts
Posted on 4/5/25 at 4:58 pm to
quote:

quote:

In a sense, being the world’s largest economy in dollar terms means little.

Correct

Perhaps then you should dial back the "The US is the economic juggernaut due to its #1 standing" mantra

Youre all over the place
Posted by SlowFlowPro
With populists, expect populism
Member since Jan 2004
466922 posts
Posted on 4/5/25 at 4:59 pm to
quote:

Perhaps then you should dial back the "The US is the economic juggernaut due to its #1 standing" mantra

No. Our mesh of total output and per capita output puts us alone in a tier by ourselves. The same applies to our manufacturing output.

quote:

Youre all over the place


No. I even posted a chart for you and specifically said

quote:

When you take per capita into account, their ranking tumbles a long way.


Did you not read the whole post?
Posted by northshorebamaman
Cochise County AZ
Member since Jul 2009
37577 posts
Posted on 4/5/25 at 5:03 pm to
quote:


I agree, but I am at a loss to actually explain that here.
That's probably the most concise argument possible. If that doesn't get through, there's no point in the discussion. Other than entertainment, which is fine, and the only reason to post on this board, imo.
Posted by Turbeauxdog
Member since Aug 2004
24144 posts
Posted on 4/5/25 at 5:03 pm to
quote:

You've missed the critiques that the numbers are based in trade deficits and not tariffs? I can link you the critiques if you need those


Yeah when countries use impossible to measure things like currency manipulation to create a trade surplus they used the trade surplus as a punitive metric.

"We don't like it"
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