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Started By
Message
re: Interesting trump statement on Ukraine (wants Ukraine to go on offense)
Posted on 8/21/25 at 10:04 am to Pettifogger
Posted on 8/21/25 at 10:04 am to Pettifogger
quote:
What evidence do you see of Putin's commitment to taking all of Ukraine at this point?
The consistency of his demands for even a ceasefire. As in, he wants control of areas that he does not actually control on the battlefield.
1
Posted on 8/21/25 at 10:07 am to crazy4lsu
quote:
As in, he wants control of areas that he does not actually control on the battlefield.
That he still hasn’t been able to take after years of war. Heavily fortified land that is critical to defense of the rest of Ukraine.
This post was edited on 8/21/25 at 10:09 am
Posted on 8/21/25 at 10:12 am to texas tortilla
quote:
i have said it before, trump is all over the place on ukraine.
So you don't know what Trump is thinking?
Neither do Putin and Zelenski.
How do you frickers think negotiations go?
Posted on 8/21/25 at 10:14 am to AncientTiger
quote:
Russia has the capability to annihilate Ukraine at any time, without using Nuclear weapons.
The best thing about this stupid war was finding out that this obviously isn't the case.
The old, outdated, tin cans that they're rolling around in are pathetic by modern standards.
Russia peaked about 50 years ago, and they were so proud of that peak that they decided to stay there forever. The whole country, outside of St Petersburg, and parts of Moscow, is a complete dump, rife with poverty, substance abuse, crumbling infrastructure, and lack of innovation.
Posted on 8/21/25 at 10:18 am to Pettifogger
quote:
No serious person thinks Putin wants to continue a meat grinder for years to annihilate a region and people he claims as part of broader Russia. Putin wants and needs an out. He just arguably needs it less than Ukraine.
What is your evidence that he wants an off-ramp? Because the fact that Russian demands in peace negotiations have appeared intractable undermines that notion, and that is far more meaningful at this point.
Putin clearly wants to force Ukraine to capitulate areas that Russia does not control. His demands are maximalist and they haven't really wavered. The notion that he wants an off-ramp is not based on the evidence we have on hand.
This post was edited on 8/21/25 at 10:55 am
Posted on 8/21/25 at 10:40 am to HailHailtoMichigan!
Why should we even give a sh.t what happens over there? I see no reason to even be involved. Screw both sides.
Posted on 8/21/25 at 10:47 am to crazy4lsu
quote:
Putin clearly wants to force Ukraine to capitulate areas that Russia does not control. His demands are maximalist and they haven't really wavered. The notion that he wants an off-ramp is not based on the evidence we have on hand.
Both of yall can be correct. Putin absolutely wants all of Ukraine, and for the rest of his life he’s going to try and make it his too, whether by force/economic/political pressure. He also wants/needs an off-ramp, because his initial assumptions and calculations were wrong, he’s not going to take all of Ukraine right now without a lot more killing of their people. So it’s time for them to pause and regroup/rebuild.
Posted on 8/21/25 at 10:50 am to Decatur
Ukraine was the most well equiped and well trained Army in Europe including Russia at the start of this.. Russia's first attempt at the failed, so they changed the way the conducted the war and turned it into a Attrtion war. They are slowly killing off Ukraine's Army day by day, inch by inch.. IMO, Ukrainian Men were sold down the River, thinking they would defeat Russia and blame the USA and the Europoors for that...
Posted on 8/21/25 at 10:55 am to AGGIES
quote:
it’s also pretty clear that if Putin can get a piece deal where he gets to pause, claim victory, and reload for another offensive down the road, he’d before it. That’s why he wants a peace deal that does not include NATO like security guarantees for Ukraine. He still wants all of Ukraine. And he will settle for a step-by-step process.
Yes. Combine two major patterns and you can see where this is going. First, look at his track record of the past 25 years. He has sought frozen conflicts to destabilize neighbors (S. Georgia, Transistria, and Donbas itself prior to the full-scale invasion) and partial victories where he could place a puppet like Kadyrov in Chechnya and biding his time in Crimea before going back for more in 22).
The other part is his "one people" rhetoric. He and his proxies are constantly talking about the illegitimacy of the Ukrainian state and this hasn't changed after they failed to topple the government. Any "peace" should be a "peace to reload" until Putin consistently renounces this idea.
Which he can't do because he's so committed to holding off the ultra-nationalists, but doesn't seem that he wants to do because there's a trail of him slowly developing his views over a very long time.
Posted on 8/21/25 at 10:57 am to sta4ever
quote:
Both of yall can be correct. Putin absolutely wants all of Ukraine, and for the rest of his life he’s going to try and make it his too, whether by force/economic/political pressure. He also wants/needs an off-ramp, because his initial assumptions and calculations were wrong, he’s not going to take all of Ukraine right now without a lot more killing of their people. So it’s time for them to pause and regroup/rebuild.
Yes, this is right except he's not able to take all of Ukraine now full stop. Now what's the right strategy to deter the pause/regroup/rebuild pattern? Or have we decided we want to facilitate it?
This post was edited on 8/21/25 at 11:09 am
Posted on 8/21/25 at 10:57 am to bamalee
quote:
Ukraine was the most well equiped and well trained Army in Europe including Russia at the start of this
No, not in 2022. Parts of the Ukraine Army struggle with Western-style organization.
Posted on 8/21/25 at 11:00 am to Pettifogger
quote:
Trump is all over the place to try and gain credibility with Putin. I don't think it'll work. Not for lack of trying, but Putin is smart and knows Trump uses his "wildcard" persona for this stuff all the time and other conventional wisdom leaders play along (see tariff fights). But he knows Trump isn't sending Americans into this conflict and he knows Trump really really doesn't want to empower Ukraine to continue a dead end slog.
But, he's nonetheless giving it a go.
It reminds me of old Pride when Wanderlei Silva would do his pre-fight routine against real killers who just stood there, unaffected
Posted on 8/21/25 at 11:01 am to BigPerm30
quote:
If he feels like Russia has all the leverage, he is trying to help Ukraine by pretending we will help them go on the offensive. Trump isn’t sending Americans into this shite.
That's my take too.
Of course, that could be permission for more infrastructure drone strikes on Russia.
Risky, but Trump is probably right that it needs to be a threat, so Ukraine and Trump have more leverage at the bargaining table.
Posted on 8/21/25 at 11:02 am to sta4ever
quote:
He also wants/needs an off-ramp, because his initial assumptions and calculations were wrong, he’s not going to take all of Ukraine right now without a lot more killing of their people.
This idea is undermined by actual Russian demands. If he wanted an easy off-ramp, then one would expect some degree of change in what they want. Instead, their demands have grown more maximalist over time.
People need to start considering the possibility that the Russian elite see themselves involved in a 'cosmic' war between themselves and the West. That is the background rhetoric of the Russian elite and has been repeated constantly by their media arm. The off-ramp discussion isn't based on any evidence we have on hand.
Posted on 8/21/25 at 11:03 am to crazy4lsu
quote:
Instead, their demands have grown more maximalist over time.
They had a deal in place right before the invasion and Putin reneged and demanded more, then invaded
Posted on 8/21/25 at 11:05 am to SlowFlowPro
Now do April 2022.
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This post was edited on 8/21/25 at 11:06 am
Posted on 8/21/25 at 11:05 am to TigerDoc
quote:
TigerDoc
Posted on 8/21/25 at 11:07 am to Bunk Moreland
That deal reportedly involved Western security guarantees....without speaking to anyone who would be giving these guarantees.
It's almost as if Putin is playing....4D Chess
It's almost as if Putin is playing....4D Chess
Posted on 8/21/25 at 11:08 am to bamalee
quote:
Ukraine was the most well equiped and well trained Army in Europe including Russia at the start of this
No
Posted on 8/21/25 at 11:09 am to HeadCall
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