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Message
1
Posted on 3/27/25 at 11:10 am to DisplacedBuckeye
quote:
I don't know why people with kids have such a need to push their experience on others
I think that's fair. But at the same time, I don't think it's necessarily reasonable to put the historical norm and the abnormal on even planes.
If the permanent singleness or married and childless by choice position is "look I realize this is the minority position in Western culture, but it's the one I want and that fits me so let me be in the minority position in peace" - right on.
But if the minority position becomes a significant minority position or a majority position, I think the scenario shifts considerably.
Posted on 3/27/25 at 11:11 am to Pettifogger
quote:
I certainly think the societal expectation on women to do so (rather than the financial need to do so) comes predominantly from women.
When the shitty economy necessitates that women work, societal expectations don't matter.
quote:
So, I think as a starting place, men and women agreeing that men wanting to position themselves so their wives can work in the home is a generally good thing. I'm not sure most women - progressive women in particular - would agree. It leaves these conversations in a strange spot where "we're expected to work" is a premise of the issue, but "well how about we move society to a point where women can stay home" is politically incorrect.
I can pretty much guarantee that most women (and likely men too) would LOVE if working was optional for them.
quote:
But among the type of women who have conversations about this stuff at a meaningful level (presumably you) their expectations for their own husbands are much higher, and their husbands (and their peers and friends) tend to fulfill those expectations reasonably well.
I think it's impossible for either one of us to have this discussion objectively. I mean, I'm in the throes of raising everyone in my house. I'm exhausted. The other mothers that I know are in very similar boats. It's more than physically doing things, women bear the mental load of managing a house: remembering who needs to submit field trip money when, remembering to call the roofer or appliance repair man, finding childcare when the kids will be out of school for some bullshite reason, remembering when the birthday parties are, making sure presents get bought, vacations are planned, etc. etc.
Posted on 3/27/25 at 11:13 am to 4cubbies
That's how it works whether fair or unfair. I wasiving in NJ and working in NYC when my wife had three of our 4 kids. For 12 years, my life was nothing more than humping for my family. Get up at 5 a.m., feed the youngest some mornings, take a shower, wake the oldest up and make sure he was starting to get ready. Catch the train into the city. Work a full day. Get back to Jersey around 615 -630 at a minimum. Get home, eat a little, take my two oldest boys to Tae Kwon Do twice a week. Then come home and do Dad things both for myself and my wife and kids. My wife worked closer to home and really had one of the coolest bosses so she was lucky in that respect.
What I'm saying is that once you have kids, your primary job is to be a parent....and it's exhausting, but it's worthwhile irrespective of the cost and time involved. I think that men and women today want to have it all and marriage is just another form of dating. You can't and it isn't.
What I'm saying is that once you have kids, your primary job is to be a parent....and it's exhausting, but it's worthwhile irrespective of the cost and time involved. I think that men and women today want to have it all and marriage is just another form of dating. You can't and it isn't.
This post was edited on 3/27/25 at 11:14 am
Posted on 3/27/25 at 11:15 am to 4cubbies
quote:
field trip money when, remembering to call the roofer or appliance repair man, finding childcare when the kids will be out of school for some bullshite reason, remembering when the birthday parties are, making sure presents get bought, vacations are planned, etc. etc.
Necessities:
-field trip fee
-roof repair
-appliance repair
-childcare
Luxuries:
-birthday parties
-presents
-vacations
Posted on 3/27/25 at 11:16 am to Pettifogger
quote:
historical norm
I don't give a whole lot of weight to this. History is filled with "norms" that were pretty fricking backwards, and "abnormal" views that were spot on.
quote:
If the permanent singleness or married and childless by choice position is "look I realize this is the minority position in Western culture, but it's the one I want and that fits me so let me be in the minority position in peace" - right on.
Indeed it is. You can count on Jim Abbott's right hand the number of threads I've started, proselytizing to others about how they shouldn't want or have kids.
quote:
But if the minority position becomes a significant minority position or a majority position, I think the scenario shifts considerably.
Sure, but that doesn't mean there's something inherently wrong with the position.
This post was edited on 3/27/25 at 11:21 am
Posted on 3/27/25 at 11:27 am to 4cubbies
quote:
When the shitty economy necessitates that women work, societal expectations don't matter.
I disagree. We should be playing the long game even if your assumptions are true, and at least naming what the ideal is.
quote:
I can pretty much guarantee that most women (and likely men too) would LOVE if working was optional for them.
As for men, I disagree. I know a lot of two professional families where at times this has been an option or at least feasible for the guy, and they're avidly against it. Men need to work.
But yeah, I agree, most women would like this. So why isn't aren't women in the public square (outside of trad twitter) willing to say it out loud?
quote:
I think it's impossible for either one of us to have this discussion objectively. I
Of course it is, and maybe I just can't relate to your circumstances or perspective. I've probably changed 3000 diapers in the past 4 years. My wife and I fight over who gets to go get groceries because that's an escape right now. I guess my thinking is "yeah it's hard, sometimes it feels impossible, but the alternative sounds terrible so what choice is there." I'd choose it again every time and most guys I know (and their wives) certainly seem like they feel similarly.
Posted on 3/27/25 at 11:30 am to KiwiHead
quote:
What I'm saying is that once you have kids, your primary job is to be a parent....and it's exhausting, but it's worthwhile irrespective of the cost and time involved. I think that men and women today want to have it all and marriage is just another form of dating. You can't and it isn't.
I agree here. I tell new dads all the time that you've just got to embrace the suck. If you go into it acknowledging you asked for it, it makes the sleepless nights a lot better IMO. I wanted this life (which is a pretty normal life) and thus I'm very content that I have it, difficulties and all.
I do think you have to account for wealth/resources, and I think it's a disconnect between a lot of people and those of us who have these conversations for sport. Although I don't think it's as much of a gap on this board, where most people are probably middle-upper, etc. But it is something I try to keep in mind when talking about this stuff on a broad level.
Posted on 3/27/25 at 11:32 am to DisplacedBuckeye
quote:
I just obliterated your point.
My point was, you can’t possibly understand.
Your response was: I don’t need to get stabbed in the eye to know I don’t want to get stabbed in the eye.
^^ this is not understanding. You can’t comprehend it.
Posted on 3/27/25 at 11:33 am to DisplacedBuckeye
quote:
Sure, but that doesn't mean there's something inherently wrong with the position.
At the individual level, no. In the aggregate level...?
Look, obviously I'm a "have kids" guy, but I don't really feel any need to persuade you to that life. But I do think kids are a major source of "skin in the game" and I doubt you disagree.
I don't think you're a Christian, so you might not be with me on this one, but a lot of non-Christians/atheists in America are of the "it's great for me and I think it's great in general but I don't really want to live in a country where my position becomes the dominant one." That's how I see the childless by choice thing too - I think the most sensible position there is "great for me, but 4/5 of you couples need to be having kids, got it?"
Posted on 3/27/25 at 11:36 am to Pettifogger
quote:
the fact that women are waiting to start having kids until their mid-30s is an obvious (and significant) part of the issue.
Women aren't choosing to wait this long, but they also aren't settling.
quote:
Ie, a 35 year old woman and her husband start trying in earnest and quickly jump to fertility treatment because they're worried about the clock and are at a later stage in life where they have more resources. Whereas a 25 year old woman may slog it out for longer because the pressure is less and they have less money to throw at the issue. In short, that may be somewhat skewing numbers, in my opinion.
Every OBGYN I have ever heard of requires patients to actively try to get pregnant for 6 months to a year before they will discuss fertility treatments.
The overprescribing and overreliance on hormonal birth control probably has a lot to do with trouble getting pregnant.
People are also lazy and want quick-fixes. I am not a brain surgeon and I was able to figure out when I ovulate with ease. I got pregnant the first month we tried, but I did have to put forth some initiative and effort to learn how to detect ovulation and various stages of my cycle. Meanwhile, my best friend doesn't even track her periods.
Posted on 3/27/25 at 11:36 am to Pettifogger
I don't advocate like the old school Catholics for big families especially if you have income restraints that v would make it a hardship. But I encourage that if you have one kid, have second one as well. 2 or three is better for the parents and the kids.
I like the term "embrace the suck" It's appropriate for the position.
I like the term "embrace the suck" It's appropriate for the position.
Posted on 3/27/25 at 11:37 am to Pettifogger
quote:
In the aggregate level...?
quote:
Look, obviously I'm a "have kids" guy, but I don't really feel any need to persuade you to that life. But I do think kids are a major source of "skin in the game" and I doubt you disagree.
Skin in what game? What happens to society after we're gone? Sure, I'd agree with that to some extent, but that doesn't mean I don't have "skin in the game."
quote:
I don't think you're a Christian, so you might not be with me on this one, but a lot of non-Christians/atheists in America are of the "it's great for me and I think it's great in general but I don't really want to live in a country where my position becomes the dominant one." That's how I see the childless by choice thing too - I think the most sensible position there is "great for me, but 4/5 of you couples need to be having kids, got it?"
I don't have strong feelings one way or the other about whether or not other people have kids. I'm simply pushing back on the idiotic notion that I don't know what I'm missing and that eventually, someday, down the road...I'm going to regret it. That's silly and ignorant.
Posted on 3/27/25 at 11:38 am to Aguga
quote:
My point was, you can’t possibly understand.
Right, and you were wrong.
Posted on 3/27/25 at 11:45 am to Pettifogger
quote:Why aren't women organizing marches or protests about this? Because if you ask any working mother if she would like to have the option to stay home, I can assure you that most would say yes.
So why isn't aren't women in the public square (outside of trad twitter) willing to say it out loud?
quote:
My wife and I fight over who gets to go get groceries because that's an escape right now.
During COVID lockdown, I was home with a toddler and an infant and working remotely. I used to always tell my husband "you don't understand what its like. You get to GO to work!"
I order most of our groceries and get them delivered.
quote:
I guess my thinking is "yeah it's hard, sometimes it feels impossible, but the alternative sounds terrible so what choice is there." I'd choose it again every time and most guys I know (and their wives) certainly seem like they feel similarly.
100% As I'm telling you overwhelmed and exhausted I am, I still want to have one more baby. It makes zero sense but when I see my son's chubby little legs kicking erratically while he shoves his hands in his mouth... I mean, is there anything better?
Who needs more money, or free time, or sanity anyway?
This post was edited on 3/27/25 at 11:46 am
Posted on 3/27/25 at 11:46 am to KiwiHead
quote:
It might have a little to do with feminism
Nope.
It's almost entirely to do with feminism.
If you want to see what young women believe as a result of feminism being carried to its logical conclusion, go to YouTube and search for the Whatever podcast.
They have massive podcasts, sometimes as long as 6 or more hours, where they bring in a panel of young women to discuss these things—dating, marriage, feminism, etc. Often these women agree to come on the show because the have OFs accounts that they want to promote.
They reflect mainstream opinions among young women in 2025, and you will not believe how delusional they are.
There was a poster on the marathon thread about housing prices recently who very accurately described what dating is like for young men in 2025. I disagreed with everything he was saying about the housing issue, but he was dead on as far as dating in 2025.
Go check out that podcast and listen to these young women talk. Give it some time and listen to several podcasts so that you don't come away thinking that the one you listened to was just an outlier. It's not.
This post was edited on 3/27/25 at 11:47 am
Posted on 3/27/25 at 11:46 am to DisplacedBuckeye
You should bookmark this thread. When you and your partner decide not to adopt and later regret that decisions you can come back and view a younger dumber version of yourself.
Posted on 3/27/25 at 11:49 am to wackatimesthree
quote:
If you want to see what young women believe as a result of feminism being carried to its logical conclusion, go to YouTube and search for the Whatever podcast.
Or you can talk to a real woman who isn't trying to sell ads.
quote:
They have massive podcasts, sometimes as long as 6 or more hours, where they bring in a panel of young women to discuss these things—dating, marriage, feminism, etc. Often these women agree to come on the show because the have OFs accounts that they want to promote.
They reflect mainstream opinions among young women in 2025, and you will not believe how delusional they are.
You literally just said these woman are trying to promote themselves and you think they're being genuine with the image of themselves they curate?
quote:
Go check out that podcast and listen to these young women talk. Give it some time and listen to several podcasts so that you don't come away thinking that the one you listened to was just an outlier. It's not.
Stop depending on people selling things to reveal anything about reality.
Posted on 3/27/25 at 11:50 am to Aguga
quote:
You should bookmark this thread. When you and your partner decide not to adopt and later regret that decisions you can come back and view a younger dumber version of yourself.
They may never regret not having kids, but they will never know what it's like to be a parent, either. He knows this and is just being contrarian like always.
Posted on 3/27/25 at 11:50 am to Aguga
Eventually. Someday. It'll happen. Wait and see. You're going to look back...
You should stick to pretending that I couldn't possibly comprehend what I'm missing.
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