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re: In God We Trust now under attack..
Posted on 5/7/18 at 1:01 pm to AUstar
Posted on 5/7/18 at 1:01 pm to AUstar
quote:
quote:
If you think that a phrase on paper currency is what will help us survive then I don't know what to tell you
The same argument can be made for the other side. Why are they letting a "phrase on currency" upset them so much?
It's the difference between you having the right to believe as you wish and forcing that belief on others.
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Posted on 5/7/18 at 1:01 pm to Revelator
quote:
You couldn't be more wrong even if you tried.
Really?
You don't think if he had said something like, "There ain't no Jesus." he wouldn't be more wrong?
Posted on 5/7/18 at 1:02 pm to Argonaut
quote:
So not the pilgrims..
No, the pilgrims did not write the Declaration of Independence.
quote:
Those values aren't unique to Christianity
Of course not.
quote:
That context tells us that Christians have no claim to the foundation of this country.
Except for the Christians who founded this country, you are absolutely correct.
This conversation has gone into intentionally obtuse statements, as per usual.
How about this, if all the language and context means nothing and the Christians who founded this country did not do anything based on their beliefs, then can we dispense with the argument that a politician today who is religious would base all of their governing decisions on their beliefs?
Posted on 5/7/18 at 1:11 pm to GRTiger
quote:
Except for the Christians who founded this country, you are absolutely correct.
They don't have a claim to it as Christians, either. That wasn't an accident.
quote:
How about this, if all the language and context means nothing and the Christians who founded this country did not do anything based on their beliefs
They were intelligent enough to separate their religious beliefs from the foundation of the country. We could use some of that today.
Posted on 5/7/18 at 1:13 pm to WildTchoupitoulas
quote:
Really? You don't think if he had said something like, "There ain't no Jesus." he wouldn't be more wrong?
You are right, but it was hyperbole.
Posted on 5/7/18 at 1:30 pm to Revelator
quote:
And who would that be?
The god recognized by deists.
quote:
Are you telling me that in a nation that almost exclusively worshipped a Judeo-Christian God at the time
Very debatable. 1776 was within one of the lowest religious points in our nation's history in terms of church attendance with an estimated 10-20% of colonists attending church regularly and these figures would not rise again until the Second Great Awakening.
quote:
, that their reference to a Creator was somehow, someone else?
Not sure who you mean by "their." Specifically, Jefferson, who wrote the Declaration, was a deist and the document was primarily edited by Franklin, a self-described deist, and Adams, a noted Protestant who was greatly influenced by Deism as evident by his religious writings.
This post was edited on 5/7/18 at 1:36 pm
Posted on 5/7/18 at 1:34 pm to BBONDS25
quote:
Well, I'm looking at it from a legal standpoint. Not an emotional one. If you can make an argument for the former instead of relying on the latter that would be very helpful.
The second part of the Establishment Clause test is determining whether the action promotes any religion over non-religion. If so, then technically its a violation.
Posted on 5/7/18 at 1:35 pm to Revelator
quote:
So the pilgrims and puritans leave England to come establish a country where the Judeo-Christian God can be worshipped, and then these people, who were educated in universities invented to train pastors get into politics, they create a Deceleration of Independence that gives credit to the creator for our rights, and I'm supposed to believe it's a different creator than the one they've traditionally worshiped? Is that what you'd have me to believe?
You are leaving a ton of history out of this analysis.
Posted on 5/7/18 at 1:38 pm to Antonio Moss
quote:
The god recognized by deists
What's that God's name?
Posted on 5/7/18 at 1:39 pm to Revelator
quote:
What's that God's name?
I don't know
Posted on 5/7/18 at 1:41 pm to Revelator
quote:
Please, tell me who this creator is whom they are addressing?
They left it open-ended to allow for any number of creators...
Personally, I give my mom a lot of credit for creating me.
...and Dad helped.
Note that they did not say "endowed by God", or "endowed by Yahweh", or "endowed by GodJesusGhost". But ultimately, if I'm God, I don't want to be associated with dirty money. I find the reference to God on our money to be borderline blasphemy.
"Render unto Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and unto God the things that are God's"
Posted on 5/7/18 at 1:47 pm to Revelator
quote:
What's that God's name?
The Jews have kept that a secret so that we may not use it in vain. It's said to be inscribed on the Arc of the Covenant. "Yahweh" is simply a placeholder for His name.
How fricked up is that, people worshipping a god they can't even know the name of.
Posted on 5/7/18 at 2:01 pm to Dale51
quote:
As the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion,-as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion or tranquility of Musselmen,-and as the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mehomitan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.
Posted on 5/7/18 at 2:05 pm to rumproast
"In God We Trust" did not appear on paper money until 1957.
Posted on 5/7/18 at 2:09 pm to GeauxLSUGeaux
quote:
Creator
There are a few thousand gods that receive credit from some for the worlds existence.
Posted on 5/7/18 at 2:10 pm to rumproast
quote:
These a-holes are really trying to destroy the entire foundation of our country.
Yep, that's their intent. Destroy the old so that you can then introduce the new. Replace God with satan.
Posted on 5/7/18 at 2:24 pm to Revelator
quote:
That's a separate issue than if the word creator mentioned in the Declaration of Independence represented the Judeo-Christian God.
No, no it's not. If they chose a vague term to describe the origins of our rights that could apply to many different groups of people because they wanted a religiously neutral foundation for America then that would directly be counter to what you're suggesting.
Posted on 5/7/18 at 2:29 pm to Azkiger
quote:
No, no it's not. If they chose a vague term to describe the origins of our rights that could apply to many different groups of people because they wanted a religiously neutral foundation for America then that would directly be counter to what you're suggesting.
I'm saying that the Founders could have said that our rights derive from the Creator ( Christian God) giving us the rights to seek life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness, and a non believer could use these God given rights to not believe in him.
They aren't mutually exclusive.
Posted on 5/7/18 at 2:30 pm to Revelator
quote:
What's that God's name?
The god of deists is simply considered a creator. Deists believe in a non-personal god, a god who created everything but does not interact with his creation.
Some of our founding fathers were deists, and "creator" is much closer to deism than it is Christianity considering how specific Christianity is about its god.
Posted on 5/7/18 at 2:31 pm to Revelator
quote:
They aren't mutually exclusive.
The intents certainly are. If you intended to use a vague term to represent lots of people who believe different things you aren't choosing that term to refer to something specific.
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