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re: Impressive support for Intelligent Design
Posted on 3/14/26 at 8:05 am to Squirrelmeister
Posted on 3/14/26 at 8:05 am to Squirrelmeister
quote:You're mixing metaphors here.
The Ancient Greeks knew the earth was round and that the earth revolved around the sun 500+ years before the Septuagint was translated and compiled
The Greeks did know the earth is spherical. However, with the exception of Aristarchus (whose heliocentric theory was rejected), Greek understanding was based on assumed geocentricity.
Regarding the Septuagint, it was largely compiled in Alexandria starting around 280 BC. Alexandria is of course same city sourced to Greek astronomical thinking in that era. So there was no separation of understanding, or knowledge chasm involved.
1
Posted on 3/14/26 at 9:03 am to AUveritas
quote:There were no errors in God’s word as originally written. The autographs were infallible.
So, there are errors. Glad we agree.
Errors can exist in copies, and yet again I say that we know what the original autographs were.
We are not in agreement.
quote:And yet God’s word is clear that it was David.
And most Biblical scholars agree that Elhanan was likely the original slayer of Goliath.
“Biblical scholars” believe a lot of things that are intended to destroy the credibility of the Bible because a lot of “Biblical scholars” don’t even believe the Bible is God’s revelation.
You get a bunch of people hostile to Christianity looking at “likely” interpretations, and their conclusions will not be very favorable. Scholars of every field use assumptions and worldviews to guide their own interpretations.
quote:I would hope everyone would. It’s true.
I would too.
Posted on 3/14/26 at 9:14 am to FooManChoo
quote:
And yet God’s word is clear that it was David.
It was just pointed out though that it’s not clear.
Posted on 3/14/26 at 9:14 am to NC_Tigah
quote:Absolutely true. The primary assumption is that what we observe today has been true continually in the last going back to the beginning. It does not account for supernatural intervention by the creator.
100% FALSE, sir.
quote:The timing you listed is based on assumptions, as I just explained. Closed systems, starting conditions, constant decay rates, the geological column representing long ages, and many more assumptions are used to reach conclusions that you are convinced are entirely accurate.
There is no age-of-earth vs age-of-man "assumption" which would "blow apart" relative to the absurd premise that the 4.5+ BILLION years comprising the Precambrian, Paleozoic, Mesozoic, and 99% of the Cenozoic Eras actually occurred in 144 hours. None! The error rate of the 4.54 BILLION yr age-of-earth calculation is +/-1%.
Beyond that +/-1% range, we are no longer talking assumption. We are talking certainty.
But actually your contention is tragically far worse. You contend the age-of-universe vs age-of-man, comprises a that same span, further compressing nearly 14 BILLION years into your 144 hour time frame. The Bible does not make that claim. You do.
quote:No, there are a lot of problems with evolutionary theory and the age of the earth that pose a much greater threat to the reliability of the Bible.
You'd do better promoting flat earth, or geocentrism.
quote:1,500 to 2,000 years from the creation to the flood. There may have been a “dinosaur” kind represented on the ark which may then have gone extinct later.
Regarding "assumptions," let's help you bring this home.
How long was the age of the dinosaurs in your estimation?
Posted on 3/14/26 at 9:16 am to Squirrelmeister
quote:I wondered when you would show up. You can stay lurking in the shadows for all I care. You are not a good-faith poster so I won’t be engaging with you.
Squirrelmeister
Posted on 3/14/26 at 9:17 am to Mo Jeaux
quote:For those not assuming a contradiction, it is clear. I already explained why in a previous post.
It was just pointed out though that it’s not clear.
Posted on 3/14/26 at 9:37 am to FooManChoo
quote:We know from the fossil record "dinosaur kinds" did not remotely coexist with man. Again that's not theory. It is simple fact of natural law. As such, it is as factually substantive as heliocentricism, and as the sky is blue. Radiocarbon dating falls within the same premise, as do the laws of thermodynamics and gravity.
1,500 to 2,000 years from the creation to the flood. There may have been a “dinosaur” kind represented on the ark which may then have gone extinct later.
Jeremiah 33:25 explicitly addresses the order of natural laws. "I have established my covenant with day and night and the fixed laws of heaven and earth."
Posted on 3/14/26 at 9:42 am to FooManChoo
quote:Nor does God's covenant as specified in Jeremiah.
It does not account for supernatural intervention by the creator.
Posted on 3/14/26 at 10:24 am to NC_Tigah
quote:
The Greeks did know the earth is spherical. However, with the exception of Aristarchus (whose heliocentric theory was rejected), Greek understanding was based on assumed geocentricity.
So you admit there were Greeks who understood spherical earth and heliocentrism to be accurate with respect to our reality. Glad we agree.
quote:
Regarding the Septuagint, it was largely compiled in Alexandria starting around 280 BC. Alexandria is of course same city sourced to Greek astronomical thinking in that era. So there was no separation of understanding, or knowledge chasm involved.
The book of Daniel in included in the Septuagint and it dates to around 150-160BC.
Posted on 3/14/26 at 10:31 am to FooManChoo
quote:
FooManChoo
You are “sure” that your dogmatic views comport with reality, yet you have Ignatius of Antioch admitting there were loads of Christians contemporary with the 1st century apostles who denied Jesus came in the flesh, denied he really died, denied he was crucified under Pontius Pilate, and more. Clement of Rome from 60-90AD quoted Jesus but literally always quoted Yahweh from the Jewish Bible as what Jesus said. Clement and Paul never wrote about an earthly Jesus.
You have yourself convinced an allegorical story set on earth of a mythical celestial Jesus is “the Truth”.
Sad
Posted on 3/14/26 at 10:32 am to FooManChoo
quote:
For those not assuming a contradiction, it is clear. I already explained why in a previous post.
Explained.
Was that in the same post where you explained that there could have been a dinosaur “kind” on the ark? I need to abandon this foolish discussion.
Posted on 3/14/26 at 11:25 am to Squirrelmeister
quote:
So you admit there were Greeks who understood spherical earth
Admit?
I've never contended otherwise.
Hell, in that same timeframe, Eratosthenes performed calculations in Alexandria that almost exactly nailed the earth's circumference.
The point being, you intimated such knowledge as somehow separate from the Septuagint which was compiled in Alexandria during exactly that period.
Meanwhile, re: "we agree," once again, Greek science did not accept heliocentrism.
quote:Irrelevant. We are discussing Genesis which was translated ~100yrs earlier.
The book of Daniel
This post was edited on 3/14/26 at 11:32 am
Posted on 3/14/26 at 11:44 am to NC_Tigah
quote:
Admit? I've never contended otherwise.
So what are we arguing about?
quote:
The point being, you intimated such knowledge as somehow separate from the Septuagint which was compiled in Alexandria during exactly that period.
Did I? I’m not following.
quote:
Irrelevant. We are discussing Genesis which was translated ~100yrs earlier.
I never mentioned Genesis, at least not today or recently.
Posted on 3/14/26 at 12:00 pm to Squirrelmeister
quote:If you simply brought it up out of thin air, with no intent to tie to the discussion, perhaps you didn't intimate it.
Did I? I’m not following.
quote:The references here to creation, evolution, earth's age, etc are Genesiac. They've nothing to do with Nebuchadnezzar's dream, or the Book of Daniel. Nor does Nebuchadnezzar's dream promote Biblical construct of a flat earth, BTW.
I never mentioned Genesis, at least not today or recently.
This post was edited on 3/14/26 at 12:01 pm
Posted on 3/14/26 at 2:55 pm to FooManChoo
quote:
There were no errors in God’s word as originally written. The autographs were infallible.
Errors can exist in copies, and yet again I say that we know what the original autographs were.
We are not in agreement.
Then feel free to link a copy of the oldest manuscripts and show that the translations are wrong.
quote:
And yet God’s word is clear that it was David.
It's absolutely not. I just showed that it's not.
quote:
“Biblical scholars” believe a lot of things that are intended to destroy the credibility of the Bible because a lot of “Biblical scholars” don’t even believe the Bible is God’s revelation.
Even if that were true (which it absolutely isn't), it doesn't make their conclusions false. When truth conflicts with your opinions, it doesn't automatically make the facts wrong.
Posted on 3/14/26 at 4:00 pm to NC_Tigah
quote:
They've nothing to do with Nebuchadnezzar's dream, or the Book of Daniel. Nor does Nebuchadnezzar's dream promote Biblical construct of a flat earth, BTW.
Daniel chapter 4 mentions a tree so tall that it touched the Shamayim (translated normally as “heavens”) which was the name given to the firmament in Genesis. And from the tree was viable all the ends of the earth. That’s the biblical flat disk earth with firmament (standard Semitic) cosmology right there.
Posted on 3/14/26 at 4:06 pm to FooManChoo
quote:
1,500 to 2,000 years from the creation to the flood. There may have been a “dinosaur” kind represented on the ark which may then have gone extinct later.
Posted on 3/14/26 at 4:57 pm to FooManChoo
quote:Stipulated.
There were no errors in God’s word as originally written.
There are only errors in translation and/or interpretation.
For example, time preeminence to the mortal vs inconsequentiality to the immortal. God exists outside of time. It is a theme hit over and over and over in scripture. Does the "notetaker" fully perceive ramifications as conveyed? Just as is God's covenant to his consistent laws of the universe tying time to mortality.
In assessing Genesis though, you choose to deny the additional messages that God has directly revealed to you via the Natural Record.
Yet, here you are, questioning that basis which God has DIRECTLY REVEALED TO YOU via the geologic or fossil record, via the constants of math, physics, chemistry, and biology. God has revealed it, and you have denied the revelation.
The hand of God guides us, but we are still capable of incomplete or misleading transcription. Early writers knew as much when they excluded some of God's messengers, some of His selected class "notetakers" as it were, from inclusion in the Bible.
Posted on 3/14/26 at 5:09 pm to Squirrelmeister
quote:"Mentions"????
Daniel chapter 4 mentions a tree so tall that it touched the Shamayim (translated normally as “heavens”)
?????
Seriously """Mentions"""????
NO!
Daniel chapter 4 SAYS Nebuchadnezzar had a dream.
It was a dream!
In his dream, he saw a tree which was so tall that it touched the Heavens.
Have you ever dreamt something impossible?
Posted on 3/14/26 at 5:17 pm to NC_Tigah
quote:We don't "know" that. We (naturalistic scientists) interpret the fossil record as saying that dinosaurs and humans did not live at the same time. That's because there is an assumption baked into the model that the rock strata represent slow sediment deposition over millions of years.
We know from the fossil record...
Like I said, there are a bunch of assumptions baked in that alter the conclusions substantially.
quote:Yes, and normally, that's how God upholds the universe. I'm not debating that the normative behavior of the universe adheres to natural laws that God established.
Jeremiah 33:25 explicitly addresses the order of natural laws. "I have established my covenant with day and night and the fixed laws of heaven and earth."
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