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re: Immigration and Christianity
Posted on 6/5/19 at 2:13 pm to LSU2ALA
Posted on 6/5/19 at 2:13 pm to LSU2ALA
quote:
That's reasonable, and I don't disagree with you. We need something that is welcoming but controlled. I would ere on the side of letting more in then some others, but that's a reasonable debate to have. I guess I'm thinking of the ones that are here illegally but have assimilated well. I don't see the value in sending them back from an economic, moral, or Christian perspective.
We already accept more legal immigrants than the next 10 nations do combined
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Posted on 6/5/19 at 2:13 pm to LSU2ALA
Yes Christian.
But I don't equate government action with charity.
I view individuals giving their own goods, of their own free will to anyone, citizen or not, as a good thing and in keeping with Christian teachings.
But I don't equate government action with charity.
I view individuals giving their own goods, of their own free will to anyone, citizen or not, as a good thing and in keeping with Christian teachings.
Posted on 6/5/19 at 2:13 pm to FooManChoo
I do agree that the individual and the state are different, but if I believe that the law is immoral from a Christian point of view, shouldn't I oppose it. I guess I'm wondering how some Christians don't find it immoral as I do. Some people in here have given very good answers. I don't necessarily agree with them, but it's a good conversation to have as I certainly am not convinced that I'm always correct in how I interpret my Christian faith.
Posted on 6/5/19 at 2:17 pm to imjustafatkid
quote:
Why do you equate "treating them well" with "they have to live in our country and we can't require them to follow our laws?" To me, that's where people get it confused. Treating people well doesn't mean we shouldn't require them to follow the proper channels for immigration into our country. Also, I don't understand how deportation could be seen as not treating someone well. How is deporting someone back to their own country somehow being terrible to them?
I would argue uprooting the illegal who is well assimilated into society and has a productive job and children who have only known this land as they came at a young age and forcing them to leave is not treating them well. To me, it comes back to the higher parts of the law of mercy, justice, and faithfulness that Christ spoke of.
Posted on 6/5/19 at 2:19 pm to Loserman
quote:
If he feels so strongly about illegal immigrants he should sell all he has and give them the proceeds to support themselves in their countries of origin.
Or at the very least sponsor the illegal immigrant in his own home at his expense.
This simply isn't true. Did you miss where I said earlier that I left my job of 17 years at the end of May because I feel God is calling me to find a job where I can serve my fellow man who is the immigrant, homeless, and hungry. My wife and I also give a lot to charity. We very much live what I am saying here. I'm not trying to brag, but what you said is simply not correct.
Posted on 6/5/19 at 2:20 pm to LSU2ALA
quote:
t. I guess I'm wondering how some Christians don't find it immoral as I do
So if I come to your house and break in and then you come home and I say "hello, where's dinner? Oh, and I'll need you to make a doctors appointment and take me grocery shopping for the next 5 years". You would say "great, you got any friends, bring them too".
No, you'd say "who the hell are you? Get out of my house".
All your points are typical bleeding heart liberal nonsense. Obey the LAW!!
Posted on 6/5/19 at 2:22 pm to volod
quote:
I agree. And I didnt elaborate on what I meant by Iron and Blood.
For the sake of Mexico, it would require the US to at the least supply the Iron (the weapons and maybe some training). The blood will completely be supplied by the Latin Americans.
It could be argued that had the South seceded (or at that point simply chose not to join the Union) in 1790, they had a much higher chance of defeating the Union.
Thanks, Volod. I think you make good points there. I agree Americans should not have to go die to liberate others. At some point, you have to stop. If it affects our national security, then that is a different matter. I also agree if the south had succeeded much earlier as you said it would have been a different result quite probably.
Posted on 6/5/19 at 2:23 pm to LSU2ALA
quote:
I would argue uprooting the illegal who is well assimilated into society and has a productive job and children who have only known this land as they came at a young age and forcing them to leave is not treating them well. To me, it comes back to the higher parts of the law of mercy, justice, and faithfulness that Christ spoke of.
You own a summer home and arrive and find squatters have moved in and used your house and resources as theirs. Would you kick them out? Or would you just let them have your summer home?
Posted on 6/5/19 at 2:25 pm to mtntiger
quote:
You keep using this quote, but you are still missing the point.
What if a needy family just decided to camp out in your front lawn, because it's a nice lawn and they have none?
Will you let them stay, or, better yet, invite them to come inside and stay? My guess is you will call the cops with the swiftness.
Illegal immigration is exactly that in a broader sense. Jesus expects us to obey the law while still remaining faithful to the spirit of the law. It is an INDIVIDUAL command, not a GOVERNMENTAL command.
Obey the law, but do what you can to help those less fortunate. Similarly, if you were to travel, you would be expected to obey the laws there. We should expect the same of those who wish to live here.
If that's too much to ask, then they should not be allowed to stay.
I am a flawed individual and I probably would call the police. I'm not saying I live my faith perfectly because I don't. I do believe though if Christ owned the house he would invite them in. Do you agree with that? The love we are called to have is such a high bar that it is very difficult, but I don't think we wash our hands of it because we can't always keep it.
Posted on 6/5/19 at 2:27 pm to LSU2ALA
quote:
I do believe though if Christ owned the house he would invite them in.
He can see their heart and intentions, you can't!
Posted on 6/5/19 at 2:28 pm to LSU2ALA
So, L2..."each will be rewarded according to their works"...don't apply?
And though I'm not sure how the Calvinist Argument re Predestination shakes out, I do believe that "even the hairs on your head are numbered". I.e., one's destiny - in God's pov - is pre-destined/ordained, because all things have already happened.
For us, it's a daily work. I'm willing to bet that if you have a home/Family of the which you are responsible for...you have a door on your home. And you monitor and invite people in on their MERIT. Bad folk don't get to stroll in through your open door.
Common sense applies. Same with Salvation. One can surely be 'saved', and begin to move up...but one can also backslide. "Take heed that ye stand lest ye fall".
IMO, the Bible speaks in 'tongues'/parables; it's paradoxical, for a reason. Just like Creation; those who chose to believe that Life came from the Evolutionary Process can clearly see the evidence for their chosen BELIEF, but not proof...and those who believe that the essence of Energy and Matter has Awareness as it's basis...and that the Evolutionary Process was created, for a reason (such being to give people who choose to value Self over God, won't be forced to do so. If that were to happen, God could be rightfully accused of creating people who are predestined/forced to worship Him...and that would suck).
Big beautiful door.
And though I'm not sure how the Calvinist Argument re Predestination shakes out, I do believe that "even the hairs on your head are numbered". I.e., one's destiny - in God's pov - is pre-destined/ordained, because all things have already happened.
For us, it's a daily work. I'm willing to bet that if you have a home/Family of the which you are responsible for...you have a door on your home. And you monitor and invite people in on their MERIT. Bad folk don't get to stroll in through your open door.
Common sense applies. Same with Salvation. One can surely be 'saved', and begin to move up...but one can also backslide. "Take heed that ye stand lest ye fall".
IMO, the Bible speaks in 'tongues'/parables; it's paradoxical, for a reason. Just like Creation; those who chose to believe that Life came from the Evolutionary Process can clearly see the evidence for their chosen BELIEF, but not proof...and those who believe that the essence of Energy and Matter has Awareness as it's basis...and that the Evolutionary Process was created, for a reason (such being to give people who choose to value Self over God, won't be forced to do so. If that were to happen, God could be rightfully accused of creating people who are predestined/forced to worship Him...and that would suck).
Big beautiful door.
Posted on 6/5/19 at 2:28 pm to RebelExpress38
quote:
Also, are the poor people close to the US more worthy of our help than those far away? I say no, and that it’s not “fair” or “just” to only help people who are on our landmass. The world would be better off if we actually showed them how to lift themselves out of poverty in their own communities instead of just throwing money at them. The whole give a man a fish, teach a man to fish idea.
Thanks, Rebel. I really like your thoughts on this. I would agree that the poor people far away are not more worthy of help then the ones close, but I would also realize how incredibly fortunate I am to live here as I did nothing to deserve the opportunities I have been given. I also mean it that I would love to see your idea of sending aid in the form of attempting to break the cycle tested in various places. I would be fascinated to see if it works and can be scaled up.
Posted on 6/5/19 at 2:28 pm to Fallshirmjager
Jesus would build them some houses, in their own country. It's called missionary work. If you don't want to live in a country, then move to a land that doesn't have borders.
Posted on 6/5/19 at 2:31 pm to Fallshirmjager
quote:
If Jesus Christ returned today, I have no doubt he would be patrolling the southern border with a whip chasing back those illegals and yelling to them that they are not America's problem.
You are either trolling, which is what I expect, or your understanding of the gospel is completely wrong.
Posted on 6/5/19 at 2:32 pm to LSU2ALA
When Jesus said to love thy neighbor, I don’t think he meant ignoring your literal neighbors to invent new ones all across the globe. Nation states are a biblical concept since God made them after the Tower of Babel. We should not destroy our country or replace our neighbors with people who will never accept Christ in any meaningful way.
Posted on 6/5/19 at 2:36 pm to Loserman
quote:
You own a summer home and arrive and find squatters have moved in and used your house and resources as theirs. Would you kick them out? Or would you just let them have your summer home?
I addressed this a little earlier with the hypothetical of someone camping on my lawn. I would almost definitely call the cops as I can't always reach the level of love that Christ calls for; however, if the person is in genuine need, I have no doubt Christ would want us to provide for them. That's incredibly hard, and I know that. It's also the radical love we are called to as Christians.
I would also argue that your hypothetical is not the same as the person who is here and owns a home or pays rent and is assimilated into society but is here illegally.
Posted on 6/5/19 at 2:37 pm to LSU2ALA
I wonder how many illegals you have chosen to personally support since you are a christian.How many have you brought into your home and personally fed and clothed? My bet is none. Until you do then you are just a hypocrite.
Posted on 6/5/19 at 2:38 pm to Walkthedawg
quote:
He can see their heart and intentions, you can't!
That is true. He can also see my heart when it comes to the foreigner, the poor, the homeless, the hungry, etc. I don't want to have to argue my Creator at the end that there is a difference in what I personally believed regarding helping those people and what I supported my government doing. I just don't think that argument holds up.
Posted on 6/5/19 at 2:40 pm to LSU2ALA
quote:
LSU2ALA
Show me the verse where it says 'illegal immigrants' and I'll change sides.
Why do people constantly leave 'illegal' off? It makes a huge difference. You are actually talking about 2 different....very different.....things.
Posted on 6/5/19 at 2:42 pm to LSU2ALA
quote:
LSU2ALA
Please don't move to Georgia
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