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re: If there was ever a Vatican III. What changes should be made to the Church?

Posted on 10/7/21 at 9:21 am to
Posted by Stitches
Member since Oct 2019
1242 posts
Posted on 10/7/21 at 9:21 am to
Nah, because I know what "graven" means. Keep swinging champ.
Posted by Mike da Tigah
Bravo Romeo Lima Alpha
Member since Feb 2005
61360 posts
Posted on 10/7/21 at 9:21 am to
quote:

What about the original KJV that contained the Deuteronomical books before being removed as Protestants attempted to further distance themselves from Catholic teachings. I'll hang up and listen.



The original KJV contained the apocrypha for historical reference only, but it should be noted that NONE of the apocrypha was ever referenced by Christ or the New Testament authors. Judaism does not consider it sacred manuscripts



Posted by OccamsStubble
Member since Aug 2019
8829 posts
Posted on 10/7/21 at 9:21 am to
Perhaps those who have earned, and then given so generously through the years, should withhold their giving, and explain to the Church that "we agree with the Pope, and feel that money earned through a capitalist system is evil, and dirty, and should not taint the purity of the Church"
Posted by troyt37
Member since Mar 2008
14671 posts
Posted on 10/7/21 at 9:22 am to
quote:

I'll consider this if you can point to me where it says in the Bible that Christians should only listen to the Bible and where the Bible gives a definitive table of contents when it comes to sacred scripture.


What else should Christians listen to? Church doctrine, instituted by ever more corrupt and corruptible men?
Posted by FlexDawg
Member since Jan 2018
14405 posts
Posted on 10/7/21 at 9:25 am to
quote:

Nah, because I know what "graven" means. Keep swinging champ.


or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven
Posted by Stitches
Member since Oct 2019
1242 posts
Posted on 10/7/21 at 9:26 am to
I get what you're saying, but Judaism doesn't consider most books beyond the first 5 as sacred manuscripts. I believe the only exception would be Essenes Jews and Messianic Jews.

Also, not everything that Christ taught was written, but here are 5 just to keep the post shortish.

Matt. 2:16 – Herod’s decree of slaying innocent children was prophesied in Wis. 11:7 – slaying the holy innocents.

Matt. 6:19-20 – Jesus’ statement about laying up for yourselves treasure in heaven follows Sirach 29:11 – lay up your treasure.

Matt.. 7:12 – Jesus’ golden rule “do unto others” is the converse of Tobit 4:15 – what you hate, do not do to others.

Matt. 7:16,20 – Jesus’ statement “you will know them by their fruits” follows Sirach 27:6 – the fruit discloses the cultivation.

Matt. 9:36 – the people were “like sheep without a shepherd” is same as Judith 11:19 – sheep without a shepherd.
Posted by Stitches
Member since Oct 2019
1242 posts
Posted on 10/7/21 at 9:29 am to
The Lord said do not make any graven imagine for the purpose of idolatry, not that they shouldn't be made in general.

The Lord said make two cherubim of gold; of hammered work shall you make them, on the two ends of the mercy seat. Make one cherub on the one end, and one cherub on the other end. . .” (Ex. 25:18-19).

So either I'm right, or God can contradict himself.
Posted by FlexDawg
Member since Jan 2018
14405 posts
Posted on 10/7/21 at 9:30 am to
Revelation 17

17 And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither; I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great whore that sitteth upon many waters:
With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication.
3 So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.
4 And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication:
5 And upon her forehead was a name written, Mystery, Babylon The Great, The Mother Of Harlots And Abominations Of The Earth.
6 And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.
7 And the angel said unto me, Wherefore didst thou marvel? I will tell thee the mystery of the woman, and of the beast that carrieth her, which hath the seven heads and ten horns.
8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.
9 And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.
10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.
11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.
12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.
13 These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.
14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.
15 And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the whore sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues.
16 And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire.
17 For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled.
18 And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.
Posted by RollTide1987
Augusta, GA
Member since Nov 2009
69495 posts
Posted on 10/7/21 at 9:31 am to
quote:

What else should Christians listen to?


1. Sacred Scripture
2. Sacred Tradition
3. The Magisterium

The three-legged stool as it has been called on occasion. These are the things a Christian should be plugged into if they want to be in the fullness of faith.

quote:

Church doctrine, instituted by ever more corrupt and corruptible men?


I believe Christ said it best in St. Matthew's Gospel when he told his disciples to listen to the scribes and Pharisees because they sat in the Chair of Moses. Because of this, he commanded them to practice and observe everything the Pharisees told them while also exhorting them not to practice what they did because they were hypocrites. The Magisterium are fallible men who represent an infallible Church.
Posted by FlexDawg
Member since Jan 2018
14405 posts
Posted on 10/7/21 at 9:34 am to
quote:

The Lord said do not make any graven imagine for the purpose of idolatry, not that they shouldn't be made in general. The Lord said make two cherubim of gold; of hammered work shall you make them, on the two ends of the mercy seat. Make one cherub on the one end, and one cherub on the other end. . .” (Ex. 25:18-19). So either I'm right, or God can contradict himself


Learn what the word OR means

or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven

Your second paragraph refers to a specific command that was given for the creation of the ark of the covenant, which no one but a priest could look upon or touch or else they would be struck dead.
Posted by Stitches
Member since Oct 2019
1242 posts
Posted on 10/7/21 at 9:36 am to
Nice. That doesn't mean what you think it means though. You have to read the Biblical letters from the perspective of those who wrote them.

This passage gives us one reason why the Catholic Church cannot be the Whore. We are told that the heads “are also seven kings, five of whom have fallen, one is, the other has not yet come.” If five of these kings had fallen in John’s day and one of them was still in existence, then the Whore must have existed in John’s day. Yet Christian Rome and Vatican City did not. However, pagan Rome did have a line of emperors, and the majority of scholars see this as the line of kings to which 17:10 refers. Five of these emperors are referred to as having already fallen, one as still reigning in John’s time, and another yet to come. Since Jerusalem had no such line of kings in the first century, this gives us evidence that the Beast (though not the Whore) is Rome. Pagan Rome.

Posted by catholictigerfan
Member since Oct 2009
59574 posts
Posted on 10/7/21 at 9:38 am to
Edit: you already responded to the Ark. It still doesn’t make sense why God would command make no image similar to that in heaven, than command them to make an image of something similar to that in heaven.
This post was edited on 10/7/21 at 9:43 am
Posted by Stitches
Member since Oct 2019
1242 posts
Posted on 10/7/21 at 9:40 am to
quote:

or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven


Now finish the chapter....go on...I believe you can do it. Let me help you

(6)I am the LORD your God,...(7)You shall have no other gods before me. (8)You shall not make for yourself a graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; (9)you shall not bow down to them or serve them; for I the Lord your God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, (10)but showing steadfast love to thousands of those who love me and keep my commandments. [Deut. 5:6-10; RSV]
Posted by IceTiger
Really hot place
Member since Oct 2007
26584 posts
Posted on 10/7/21 at 9:41 am to
quote:

Message
If there was ever a Vatican III. What changes should be made to the Church


Jesus walks in and tosses the tables
Posted by BlackAdam
Member since Jan 2016
7037 posts
Posted on 10/7/21 at 9:43 am to
quote:

But why? When I go to mass to hear the readings and hear the homily, what/how would the marital status of the priest affect my relation to this occurrence? Would his marital status compromise his other duties?


Because a husband's first duties are to his family. A priest's first duties are to his parish. Married priests, especially those with children will have divided time. You can't be at both Mrs. Smith's Last Rites and Jr.'s baseball game at the same time, unless you are Padre Pio.

Priests must be available 24/7. Husband's and father's can't provide that.
Posted by Stitches
Member since Oct 2019
1242 posts
Posted on 10/7/21 at 9:45 am to
Agreed. God can't contradict Himself, so that's why the word "graven" is key here. We're not meant to worship images. That doesn't mean we can't have them as a way of having a physical representation of Biblical themes.
Posted by Mo Jeaux
Member since Aug 2008
62354 posts
Posted on 10/7/21 at 9:48 am to
quote:

Because a husband's first duties are to his family. A priest's first duties are to his parish. Married priests, especially those with children will have divided time. You can't be at both Mrs. Smith's Last Rites and Jr.'s baseball game at the same time, unless you are Padre Pio.

Priests must be available 24/7. Husband's and father's can't provide that.



The Orthodox Church doesn't seem to have a problem with it, and hasn't for over 2000 years.
Posted by catholictigerfan
Member since Oct 2009
59574 posts
Posted on 10/7/21 at 9:48 am to
quote:

Because a husband's first duties are to his family. A priest's first duties are to his parish. Married priests, especially those with children will have divided time. You can't be at both Mrs. Smith's Last Rites and Jr.'s baseball game at the same time, unless you are Padre Pio.

Priests must be available 24/7. Husband's and father's can't provide that.



I believe something deeper is at stake too. A priest is directly imitating Christ and his celibacy for the sake of the kingdom.

Secondly, as you say, If a man is married he would have a divided heart, one to his wife and one to the kingdom of God.

While exceptions can be made, the overwhelming majority will be celibate, and from what I understand of Church history it has always been the exception never the rule that a priest can be married.
Posted by troyt37
Member since Mar 2008
14671 posts
Posted on 10/7/21 at 9:51 am to
quote:

1. Sacred Scripture


And just what sacred scripture is there, that wasn't fit to be included in the Bible?

quote:

2. Sacred Tradition


Which is another word for doctrine, which is nothing but a particular religion dictating to a person what it is that makes them a Christian, according to whichever church it may be. Some say you handle snakes, some say you speak in tongues, and some say you confess your sins to another sinner, and receive absolution from that sinner.

quote:

3. The Magisterium


I have no idea what this is, but judging by your definition below, these are just men. Lying, lustful, slovenly, covetous, murderous men, just like you and I. And believing in the infallibility of a church which has played a large part in destroying the lives of hundreds of thousands of children, just one among thousands of atrocities committed in the church's name, would be funny if it wasn't so sad.
Posted by BlackAdam
Member since Jan 2016
7037 posts
Posted on 10/7/21 at 9:52 am to
It is pretty clear you don't know what a 'graven image' is. It doesn't mean there can't be religious symbols like statues of saints, crucifixes, religious paintings. It means those things cannot be worshiped.

There isn't a Catholic on this planet that worships a statue. For 2000 years Catholic doctrine has consistently state that worship is reserved for God alone.
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