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I really like this twitter reply to Ben Shapiro (regarding the university)

Posted on 11/26/17 at 7:57 pm
Posted by HailHailtoMichigan!
Mission Viejo, CA
Member since Mar 2012
74123 posts
Posted on 11/26/17 at 7:57 pm
quote:

Universities are very good at getting students to start thinking critically about things they have always taken for granted (and I appreciate this immensely). But the problem is that these students often don't proceed to think critically about what they learn thereafter.

So they start questioning some things and then take a whole new set of ideas for graned without thinking critically about the new ideas. Frustrating.
4 replies 2 retweets 23 likes



Do you think this is accurate? Do you think professors in the humanities and social science departments do a good job of making clear that what they are teaching is merely opinion that is open for debate? Furthermore, do you think professors in these soft-science departments do enough to encourage the kids to debate their lecture material?
Posted by tide06
Member since Oct 2011
23176 posts
Posted on 11/26/17 at 8:03 pm to
(no message)
This post was edited on 1/19/21 at 10:33 pm
Posted by Navytiger74
Member since Oct 2009
50458 posts
Posted on 11/26/17 at 8:04 pm to
Didn’t read or think critically about any of that, Hail, but if this board is any indication, humanities, the social sciences, and law>>>>>>>>>>>>>>petroleum engineering, medicine, and pawpaw’s common sense in developing skills in abstract and concrete reasoning and rhetoric.

And now I think I’m due some Port wine and leftover oysters.
Posted by Lima Whiskey
Member since Apr 2013
22594 posts
Posted on 11/26/17 at 8:14 pm to
quote:

Universities are very good at getting students to start thinking critically about things they have always taken for granted


Is that a coded way of saying social justice?

If so, why is that considered a good thing?

Social justice is just the politics of envy, weaponized on lines of class, gender, and race.

As to the question.

American universities are good at revealing the great truth of the day.

Diverse discussion? New ideas? Not so much.
Posted by kcon70
Houston, TX
Member since Sep 2016
2707 posts
Posted on 11/26/17 at 8:14 pm to
(no message)
Posted by Navytiger74
Member since Oct 2009
50458 posts
Posted on 11/26/17 at 8:21 pm to
quote:

(No message)


Not the best rebuttal, but perhaps a good call. I have the acid reflux going on tonight. Too much holiday food and a bumpy flight.

Bit of a mood, to be honest.
Posted by kcon70
Houston, TX
Member since Sep 2016
2707 posts
Posted on 11/26/17 at 8:24 pm to
quote:

Didn’t read or think critically about any of that, Hail, but if this board is any indication, humanities, the social sciences, and law>>>>>>>>>>>>>>petroleum engineering, medicine, and pawpaw’s common sense in developing skills in abstract and concrete reasoning and rhetoric.


Medicine requires much more common sense and inarguably more critical thinking capability than any of those mentioned. Not sure why you group them together.

Not really sure about the ambiguity of your reply either.

However, I can agree with Hail on the issues of the “soft sciences” pushing agendas. It’s been that way for decades. Quite amazing they’re even lumped in with true science curricula.

Now, engineering? That’s a whole different, calculably difficult system of thinking. Hats off to the good ones.
Posted by Y.A. Tittle
Member since Sep 2003
110887 posts
Posted on 11/26/17 at 8:25 pm to
quote:

Do you think professors in the humanities and social science departments do a good job of making clear that what they are teaching is merely opinion that is open for debate?


I think a university level student should be able to adequately figure this out on his or her own.
Posted by kcon70
Houston, TX
Member since Sep 2016
2707 posts
Posted on 11/26/17 at 8:27 pm to
Mishaps happen. Stand fast.

quote:

Bit of a mood, to be honest.


At least you’re being honest there!

Should have down votes for “leftover” oysters. Man, how can you do that?
This post was edited on 11/26/17 at 8:33 pm
Posted by crazy4lsu
Member since May 2005
39799 posts
Posted on 11/26/17 at 8:30 pm to
quote:

Do you think professors in the humanities and social science departments do a good job of making clear that what they are teaching is merely opinion that is open for debate?


In my experience in a classroom yes. I taught at a high level, and I tried to pair readings with perspectives opposed to each other. There is a deeper problem here though. What I was teaching, at a language level, was essentially rhetoric, but rhetoric has its own very rich vocabulary, and most students (I had 1 student who know what litotes was) do not have experience with this vocabulary to speak about work at a high level.

quote:

Furthermore, do you think professors in these soft-science departments do enough to encourage the kids to debate their lecture material?



This is one thing that really annoys me about discussions about teaching. You think it is easy to get a discussion going about any work you assign? If I left it up to the kids, no one would speak up, and the class would be dead silent. I had to spend some classes just reading sections out loud. Getting kids engaged in the material is very difficult, especially because most kids aren't prepared from high school to take on college level discussions.

Posted by bonhoeffer45
Member since Jul 2016
4367 posts
Posted on 11/26/17 at 8:32 pm to
quote:

Do you think professors in the humanities and social science departments do a good job of making clear that what they are teaching is merely opinion that is open for debate?


You are starting off with a bit of a loaded question. One that infers what is being taught is somehow on the equivalent playing field of any other interpretation or opinion. Economics is roundly considered a soft science(though I would argue with the emergence and marriage of complex systems science, neural science, and behavioral economics, has helped usher in an era that is elevating the field at a pretty impressive rate), but would you take a professor to task for teaching the necessity of comparative advantage in the face of resource scarcity as a 50/50 idea compared with someone preaching an outdated idea of universal autarky to a major resource deprived nation?

quote:

Furthermore, do you think professors in these soft-science departments do enough to encourage the kids to debate their lecture material?



Anyone claiming to have a simple answer, a simple narrative, or have it all figured out in a paragraph or less is lying or unaware of the inherent problem of anecdotal evidence.

Personaly I never once had a professor that was unwilling to answer a question of skepticism, and never met a professor that didn't address schisms in a topic where they existed and contained merit.

I remember plenty of heavy debate in Game Theory classes, Public Policy classes, International Relations classes, Ethics classes, and when I got into many Economic topics at the graduate level. Because as one would expect, a lot of people bring in their biases to the classroom, and in a class on a topic like international Relations, you have plenty of people that are 20 year old armchair experts because they listened to Fox News with their Dad growing up or lived in a hippie commune in Nevada.

People that would get triggered when you were assigned to read Marx's critique of capitalism, or an Op-Ed by Dick Cheney and his advisors making the case for a Neo-conservative foreign policy. Which would inevitably lead to discussion. What the professors were always good at was shutting down the nonsense you often see proliferate on message boards, because in a classroom you are in a structured discussion and have more accountability to your words and arguments. Especially in classes that require proofing and standards of citations. But almost every class is spent on giving a person the grounds to argue various POV's. I have a nephew that told me about his gender studies class at LSU this Thanksgiving and he mentioned the debate they had about the gender pay gap. Several students had varying POV and made their cases and the class discussed the merits of the arguments. He said he learned quite a lot.

Do people always carry over the critical thinkings skills they learn and apply them ideally going forward? Who knows, it would certainly be something I would be interested in seeing studies on. My personal experience is certainly mixed. You can lead a horse to water but you can't make them drink. You can teach a person the tools of critical thinking, but you can't make them use them.
This post was edited on 11/26/17 at 8:37 pm
Posted by starsandstripes
Georgia
Member since Nov 2017
11897 posts
Posted on 11/26/17 at 8:33 pm to
People that may have finished college some time ago need to go on campus and just listen to the lectures. Universities are not doing much in the way of prompting students to critically examine beliefs. Universities are very often taking opinion, conjecture, cherry picking, and policy, and stating it as scientific fact, or stating things as consensus truth without doing a full census of existing interpretations.

When they say they are encouraging critical thought, what they mean is that they are telling students things like, 'white people are the source of all ills in society' and considering that as having encouraged them to critically examine the role of ethnicity in the direction that a society moves in. In fact, all they've done is spread propaganda.

Lastly, the unwillingness (outright refusal) to entertain varying perspectives, such as trying to shut down Milo or Ben or Ann or anyone that thinks climate change is not an open and shut case, is a clear demonstration that critical thought is not being taught or encouraged, but indoctrination and cult-like behavior is being instilled in malleable young minds. Academia is doing all of us a great disservice right now.
Posted by Stingray
Shreveport
Member since Sep 2007
12447 posts
Posted on 11/26/17 at 8:34 pm to
quote:

Medicine requires much more common sense and inarguably more critical thinking capability than any of those mentioned. Not sure why you group them together. 


I can speak on what I know, and I know medicine teaches one how to think.
Posted by StrangeBrew
Salvation Army-Thanks Obama
Member since May 2009
18363 posts
Posted on 11/26/17 at 8:57 pm to
quote:

because most kids aren't prepared from high school to take on college level discussions.


This has been my premise for 20 years, college is the new high school for most.
Posted by Little Trump
Florida
Member since Nov 2017
5817 posts
Posted on 11/26/17 at 8:58 pm to
My niece had her college Psychology book laying out while we had Thanksgiving

I opened it and it started with a "Timeline of great events in Psychology." Interesting I thought?

It gave dates then described what happened on those dates for 2-3 pages. Most mentions were primarily of the first woman or first AfricanAmerican to do this or that and how it affected psychology was secondary. LGBT mentioned

Kinda made my stomach churn as I'd just want my niece learning psychology and not what happened coming from someone being either male/female or a race or a transvestite

We're going to graduation of another niece in couple weeks and she's gone from level headed young lady in HS to air head flaming Bernie Sanders Socialist during college. What a waste of money

These are modern day examples I have that are affecting the children of our families negatively I feel.

I'm not impressed with today's college education
Posted by Lima Whiskey
Member since Apr 2013
22594 posts
Posted on 11/26/17 at 9:17 pm to
quote:

I'm not impressed with today's college education



It’s grossly watered down, but some majors are certainly worse than others.

The soft sciences are a splendid example of that. Consider the name. What does it say when you try to borrow the credibility of other, more serious, fields?
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