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Message
re: How hard is it to actually secure the border?
Posted on 7/14/14 at 5:24 pm to Zach
Posted on 7/14/14 at 5:24 pm to Zach
quote:
Fewer housing starts create fewer construction jobs that attract fewer crossings and, therefore, fewer SWB apprehensions. The correlation holds before and after the mid-2006 housing collapse.
What about welfare?
Here is a chart of the national real average TANF benefit level per family of three from 2003 to 2011 (2012 data is unavailable) and SWB apprehensions:
quote:
Prior to mid-2006, TANF benefit levels fell while unauthorized immigration rose. During the housing construction boom, unauthorized immigrants were attracted by jobs and not declining TANF benefits. After mid-2006, when housing starts began falling dramatically, real TANF benefit levels and unauthorized immigration both fell at the same time. If unauthorized immigration was primarily incentivized by the real value of welfare benefits, it would have fallen continuously since 2003.
The above chart does not capture the full size of welfare benefits or how rapidly other welfare programs increased beginning in 2008. As economist Casey Mulligan explained in his book The Redistribution Recession, unemployment insurance, food stamps (SNAP), and Medicaid benefits increased in value and duration beginning in mid-2008. Including those would skew welfare benefits upward in 2008 and beyond, but unauthorized immigration inflows still fell during that time.
In conclusion, housing starts incentivize unauthorized immigration while TANF does not.
LINK
This post was edited on 7/14/14 at 5:25 pm
1
Posted on 7/14/14 at 5:24 pm to DelU249
quote:
your solution is further bloating the government by forcing businesses to submit to regulations, at the businesses expense (just like customs sends you a bill for your container x ray) and further increasing the cost of business, the cost of the goods and services they provide, prevent dollars from being spent and chambered throughout the economy.
They already have to submit paperwork for each employer they hire. They have to check their status.
Let's provide infrastructure to help employers make good decisions on hiring, systems that can help verify if a person is an illegal immigrant would be pretty easy to put in place, and relatively cheap.
And we continue to raid places with illegal workers, but instead of fines we put the owners in jail if they are habitual offenders. If they face real penalties instead of a small fine, they will change their behavior.
The only thing we would be creating would be an insta-check system (it already sorta exists but we can improve it) to check to see if a SSN is stolen or not.
And zach is right mining the border would be pretty effective at stopping immigration. It would also be a violation of international law, but I doubt he cares.
Posted on 7/14/14 at 5:32 pm to Kirk Herbstreit
Keeping those who hire illegals responsible is much more desirable than building a wall or militarizing the border.
As long as US businesses want this cheap labor, it will come. IDGAF what you do.
As long as US businesses want this cheap labor, it will come. IDGAF what you do.
This post was edited on 7/14/14 at 5:33 pm
Posted on 7/14/14 at 5:34 pm to TejasHorn
Who's going to build our houses, mow our lawns, trim our gardens, clean our houses, cook our food, butcher our meat, park our cars, bus our tables, take our orders, wash our cars (in Houston anyway)?
This post was edited on 7/14/14 at 5:35 pm
Posted on 7/14/14 at 5:38 pm to cwill
quote:
Who's going to build our houses, mow our lawns, trim our gardens, clean our houses, cook our food, butcher our meat, park our cars, bus our tables, take our orders, wash our cars (in Houston anyway)?
the masses of people who are unemployed. we will have to pay them more than we currently do, but every job will get filled if the price is right.
it will mean the cost for everything goes up though.
Posted on 7/14/14 at 5:39 pm to TejasHorn
quote:
Keeping those who hire illegals responsible is much more desirable than building a wall or militarizing the border
they're all horribly undesirable.
how do liberals think they're going to find undocumented workers without crushing the 4th amendment...excuse me sir, show me your I.D.? They're undocumented, so they're off the books. They have no way of discovering illegals short of going up to employees and demanding they prove their citizenship, with your probable cause being "your skin isn't white or black" And of course, most businesses do not hire illegals, so most businesses would be forced to accommodate this illegal examination at their own expense
jesus fricking Christ, I can only shake my head at this logic
Posted on 7/14/14 at 5:41 pm to Hawkeye95
quote:
They already have to submit paperwork for each employer they hire.
so, I've worked in businesses with one or two around (doing chickenshit awful and compensated fairly) They weren't reported...want to know how? THEY WEREN'T REPORTED.
Posted on 7/14/14 at 5:42 pm to Hawkeye95
quote:
the masses of people who are unemployed. we will have to pay them more than we currently do, but every job will get filled if the price is right.
Unemployment isn't a problem in Houston. Those that are unemployed aren't likely to work in the jobs I listed no matter the wage.
quote:
it will mean the cost for everything goes up though.
Pretty significantly.
I'd like to see the native, shiftless unemployed move their asses out of wherever they are for a meat packing job in the nowhere Midwest. Or travel across a couple of states to pick fruits and vegetables. There's a reason immigrants get a lot of these jobs they're the only ones who would do it for a long time now.
Posted on 7/14/14 at 5:43 pm to DelU249
quote:
they're all horribly undesirable. how do liberals think they're going to find undocumented workers without crushing the 4th amendment...excuse me sir, show me your I.D.? They're undocumented, so they're off the books. They have no way of discovering illegals short of going up to employees and demanding they prove their citizenship, with your probable cause being "your skin isn't white or black"
And of course, most businesses do not hire illegals, so most businesses would be forced to accommodate this illegal examination at their own expense
every person hired in the US has to fill out an I-9. The thing is there is literally nothing behind it to actually find out if someone might be an illegal.
There would be little to no work for employers.
Its a great solution. The problem is that it would cost businesses money in that their cheap labor that doesn't unionize would disappear. They don't want that, they (and the gov't) wants to keep the status quo where there is a huge workforce that takes sub standard wages and doesn't file OSHA complaints or try to unionize.
Posted on 7/14/14 at 5:44 pm to DelU249
quote:
so, I've worked in businesses with one or two around (doing chickenshit awful and compensated fairly)
They weren't reported...want to know how? THEY WEREN'T REPORTED.
that business is breaking federal law. I am sure some of this would move off the books, but hell you get into trouble with the IRS when you do things off the books.
Posted on 7/14/14 at 5:51 pm to Hawkeye95
quote:
Let's provide infrastructure to help employers make good decisions on hiring
what the fricking frick?
I'm stopping here This is such a useless waste of time and money and does nothing to address the problem. what sort of infrastructure would improve hiring decisions? Why do we care if businesses are hiring illegals? I hope you've never complained about dope smokers being thrown in prison because your advocating the same failed policy only making it sound much nicer. Moreover, every person hiring labor KNOWS it is against the law. So the few that do hire illegals know they're breaking the law and providing further assistance, education, whatever does nothing.
Not everything has a solution, and I think if you simply don't want central americans coming here, it may be time to seek another, more attainable goal.
OT, I don't like the welfare, but even so it isn't abused by any group as it is one in particular, and they're not the ones rushing the border. So I'm not worried about making citizenship a reasonably attainable goal. It is probably easier to get a conceal carry permit in NYC than to become a citizen (probably has the same and only requirement...money and influence)Welfare is a big problem NOW and it's not illegals who are the biggest burden on that front.
Posted on 7/14/14 at 5:53 pm to Hawkeye95
quote:
that business is breaking federal law
sure as shite was. A restaurant owned by a legal immigrant I might add.
quote:
but hell you get into trouble with the IRS when you do things off the books.
Impossible for the government to find one or two low waged off the book employees unless the business owner is a bozo
Posted on 7/14/14 at 5:55 pm to cwill
"housing starts incentivize unauthorized immigration while TANF does not."
And 'you can keep your doctor'. The above *statistics*, as they support the above *conclusion*...is frickin' insane.
Those people down there live is utter desperation; rampant disease, murderous thug-anarchy and economic and basic needs deprivation. Anybody that thinks living up here with a check in the mail (for those basics) every month, and an honest (I hope we can hold it) Civil Authority...isn't their parental duty is ludicrous.
Those graphs might used to apply, or they may be loaded for surreptitious utility...but they damn sure don't back up the idea that folk coming across that border aren't looking for basic life-sustaining goods and services.
Geez. Some things are like the nose on your face. Just there...unless you look past it.
And 'you can keep your doctor'.
The above *statistics*, as they support the above *conclusion*...is frickin' insane. Those people down there live is utter desperation; rampant disease, murderous thug-anarchy and economic and basic needs deprivation. Anybody that thinks living up here with a check in the mail (for those basics) every month, and an honest (I hope we can hold it) Civil Authority...isn't their parental duty is ludicrous.
Those graphs might used to apply, or they may be loaded for surreptitious utility...but they damn sure don't back up the idea that folk coming across that border aren't looking for basic life-sustaining goods and services.
Geez. Some things are like the nose on your face. Just there...unless you look past it.
Posted on 7/14/14 at 5:56 pm to Hawkeye95
quote:
hired in the US has to fill out an I-9
your faith in people is amazing
I suppose that's a good thing. It is more optimistic. Undocumented workers have no documents, it's really the easiest way
and trust me, if the government COULD start levying fines and going apeshit (they do, but those busted are usually hiring ALOT of illegals and/or suck at fooling the easiest system in the world to buck) on every business that hired them they would...uncle sam loves to take money. Posted on 7/14/14 at 5:57 pm to DelU249
quote:
Why do we care if businesses are hiring illegals?
people are looking for a solution to the problem of illegals. They come here for jobs. take away the jobs and they won't come. Look at the above chart.
quote:
Moreover, every person hiring labor KNOWS it is against the law.
Of course they do, but as long as the worker has a SSN they can turn a blind eye. Illegals are concentrated in a few areas - construction, meat packing, agriculture and carpet mfg. Those who run those industries don't care if they hire an illegal, they just want someone to do the job cheaply. So if they show up with a valid SSN, even if stolen, they turn a blind eye.
If you were to disincentivize that behavior....it would reduce immigration.
And the difference between this and drug use is business owners have something to lose if they are caught. If were to raise the punishment for smoking pot to the death penalty, it would be a deterrent (see singapore) but the fines and short jail sentences aren't enough to disincentive drug use.
quote:
Not everything has a solution, and I think if you simply don't want central americans coming here, it may be time to seek another, more attainable goal.
yeah, I don't really care about this problem too much. I actually would be ok with an open border with Mexico, assuming we have some other structural changes in place at the same time.
Posted on 7/14/14 at 6:05 pm to Hawkeye95
quote:
They come here for jobs.
They also come here to create jobs
quote:buzzer goes off, bet your arse they will and how do you propose to stop me from hiring one to paint my fence this weekend?
take away the jobs and they won't come
This happened to my friend and because he's a straight laced pussy he complied with a police officer
picked up an illegal to help move, cop came up and told him he was breaking the law. He caved, but how does that officer knows he is hiring him for work. Could be two friends hanging out. Maybe he just was giving a stranger a ride. HOW THE frick CAN HE KNOW WITHOUT COMPLETELY STOMPING OVER THE 4TH AMENDMENT. Oh, he's illegal? How do you know? Did you ask because without probable cause (his cause being he is Mexican)that is illegal. So please, if you have legal reason to detain me, do so; otherwise, I'm leaving with my dear friend Raul for a painting party.
They don't even deport the ones they find...it is really gray area for the federal government. On one hand they're fighting over this new voter base, on the other fricking over their employment opportunity isn't winning them votes, but they do like regulating, taxing and fining.
It's just a mess. It is easier and more profitable for everyone to make citizenship an attainable goal, and you'll also have the chance to screen them to alleviate other concerns. You'll shrink the "illegal" pool and thus make it easier and reasonable to find, detain and deport illegal immigrants.
Posted on 7/14/14 at 6:13 pm to RCDfan1950
quote:
And 'you can keep your doctor'. The above *statistics*, as they support the above *conclusion*...is frickin' insane.
It's from the Cato Institute, a Koch Brothers funded, libertarian think-tank.
quote:
Geez. Some things are like the nose on your face. Just there...unless you look past it.
You're looking past the statistics because they don't support your unsupported bias.
I'll give you this, the recent surge of children isn't related to jobs and it isn't related to welfare. It's related to local, site of origin violence and bad laws initially promulgated in 1996 then further modified in 2000 and 2008 with bipartisan support.
Posted on 7/14/14 at 6:14 pm to DelU249
quote:
his happened to my friend and because he's a straight laced pussy he complied with a police officer
The cop had no authority to do anything. Your friend is an uninformed pussy.
Posted on 7/14/14 at 6:16 pm to cwill
liberal from Connecticut, what are you going to do? 
that and he's a nice guy.
that and he's a nice guy.
Posted on 7/14/14 at 6:21 pm to DelU249
quote:
It's just a mess. It is easier and more profitable for everyone to make citizenship an attainable goal, and you'll also have the chance to screen them to alleviate other concerns. You'll shrink the "illegal" pool and thus make it easier and reasonable to find, detain and deport illegal immigrants.
i think immigration reform is a great idea. hell, i will likely build an add on software module for a popular package in the meat packing industry to handle immigration. i think i could make $10M doing it too.
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