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re: He is risen
Posted on 4/1/18 at 10:13 pm to Bass Tiger
Posted on 4/1/18 at 10:13 pm to Bass Tiger
quote:
The disciples are martyrs to this very day. The atheistic movement is still trying to kill Jesus and his disciples by using "science" to prove God does not exist so therefore the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ is nothing more than an embellishment of history that over time morphed into a tall tale or myth
All I said was the evidence for the martyrdom of most of the disciplesis altogether absent.
quote:
It was such a myth the modern calendar was forever changed by Christ's birth and his death.
A change that wasn't made until HUNDREDS of years later
And Jesus was born in 3-4 BC, not 1 AD
This post was edited on 4/1/18 at 10:14 pm
1
Posted on 4/1/18 at 10:16 pm to Bass Tiger
quote:
It was such a myth the modern calendar was forever changed by Christ's birth and his death.
That wasn't until the 6th century, and it was developed by one man who didn't like the namesake of the previous system.
Posted on 4/1/18 at 10:17 pm to Perfect Circle
quote:
That's funny...I find every arguement against Christianity either unconvincing or demonstrably false.
That's fine, but the fact remains there are things in the Bible that we know either did not happen or did not happen as described. That in and of itself proves your statement cannot be true, as at least SOME arguments against the reliability of Christianity have merit.
Posted on 4/1/18 at 10:23 pm to Roger Klarvin
quote:
That's fine, but the fact remains there are things in the Bible that we know either did not happen or did not happen as described. That in and of itself proves your statement cannot be true, as at least SOME arguments against the reliability of Christianity have merit.
What in the New Testament, specifically the Gospels, do we know did not happen or did not happen as described?
Posted on 4/1/18 at 10:24 pm to Azkiger
"Islam is piling up quite the body count of individuals who are willing to die for their faith as well... Does that strengthen their claim?"
I think that's a great question.
To me, I would say we should differentiate between the motives behind these distinct conversions and lifestyle/life purpose changes.
As far as I can tell, most in Islam who are willing to perish in order to please their god and be established in his kingdom do so in violent ways. Typically inflicting harm on another who doesn't believe.
As you probably well know, Christ demanded selflessness and humility from His followers which should call no attention to oneself and only bring healing or hope to another, and most definitely not physical harm.
So, while there is no question that Islam is producing many martyrs because they do legitimately believe, it seems pretty plain to me that those individuals have a far different reason for their willingness to die for their beliefs than a Christian would.
I think that's a great question.
To me, I would say we should differentiate between the motives behind these distinct conversions and lifestyle/life purpose changes.
As far as I can tell, most in Islam who are willing to perish in order to please their god and be established in his kingdom do so in violent ways. Typically inflicting harm on another who doesn't believe.
As you probably well know, Christ demanded selflessness and humility from His followers which should call no attention to oneself and only bring healing or hope to another, and most definitely not physical harm.
So, while there is no question that Islam is producing many martyrs because they do legitimately believe, it seems pretty plain to me that those individuals have a far different reason for their willingness to die for their beliefs than a Christian would.
Posted on 4/1/18 at 10:28 pm to Roger Klarvin
quote:
And just so we're clear, there is no historical evidence other than church tradition that any of the disciples were martyred except for Peter and James.
What do you mean by"church tradition" and why do you categorically rule it out as reliable?
FTR, Biblical Christianity does not rest on church tradition.
Posted on 4/1/18 at 10:34 pm to 4cubbies
quote:
What in the New Testament, specifically the Gospels, do we know did not happen or did not happen as described?
I'll provide a specific in depth example:
The Roman census requiring men to return to their ancestral home. Not only is this intuitively absurd on its face given the time period it supposedly occurred, but we have detailed Roman census records and know this was not how they operated. Additionally the gospel of Luke states this was the census of Quirinius, which not only occurred 10 years AFTER Herod's death in 4 BCE but around 9-10 years after the estimated year of Jesus' birth. There was NO broad Roman census between 6 and 2 CE, the range of data generally provided for Jesus' possible birth.
It is absolutely impossible for the story in Luke to have occurred. It is demonstrably false. It is most likely a contrived attempt by the author of Luke 80 years after the fact to allow Jesus to fulfill of the OT prophecy which says the messiah will be born in Bethlehem.
This post was edited on 4/1/18 at 10:38 pm
Posted on 4/1/18 at 10:34 pm to Roger Klarvin
quote:
but the fact remains there are things in the Bible that we know either did not happen or did not happen as described.
What things? An example?
And I assume you're taking into account genres, manuscript tradition, authorial intent, etc when you make your claim?
Posted on 4/1/18 at 10:36 pm to Roger Klarvin
Interesting, thanks for the detailed reply. Assuming that's accurate, i can see how that would cause pause when reading other accounts in Luke.
Posted on 4/1/18 at 10:37 pm to Roger Klarvin
If I were you, I'd be absolutely miserable.
Posted on 4/1/18 at 10:41 pm to AlwysATgr
quote:
What do you mean by"church tradition" and why do you categorically rule it out as reliable?
Catholic tradition has held since about 150 AD that the disciples (except for John) were martyred for their faith. We have historical evidence apart from oral church tradition of only two being martyred.
It doesn't mean that they weren't, it just means it's essentially a legend.
quote:
FTR, Biblical Christianity does not rest on church tradition.
Of course not, thus "Biblical"
Biblical Christianity has trouble withstanding historical scrutiny however.
Posted on 4/1/18 at 10:45 pm to Tigahs78732
quote:
This actually false. There were several witnesses of Jesus after he rose 3 days later. Like I said in my earlier post, you won't hear the truth from the basic places you usually receive information, MSM.
I don't pay attention to the majority of MSM and when I have, I've never seen them report on the historicity of Christ. I'm not saying it's a subject they avoid--not even close--but I haven't read anything on it from MSM (though I think fleshing out what all MSM encompasses would be useful). So I want to openly plant that flag as I've noticed you brought it up previously in this thread and it simply does not apply to me. I'm well-versed in the Bible as I spent nearly 10 years studying it and I have a limited background in other theology (though am I by NO means a theologian!).
The people that supposedly witnessed the resurrection apparently didn't find it valuable enough to document in writing. That SHOULD be quite noteworthy but I find it's usually just a minor inconvenience to Christians. However, even if they did document it at the time, I'd invite you to see my prior comment about the spectacularly poor reliability of what people see or think they see with their eyes, even en masse. Sightings like this were incredibly common 2 thousand years ago and they still happen in the present day.
Posted on 4/1/18 at 10:47 pm to Parmen
quote:
If I were you, I'd be absolutely miserable.
Why? Evolution is incremental. Intelligent people are typically filled with doubt while the less intelligent are filled with confidence. If anything, I wish that everyone could experience the things which make us so sure of our faith but being ugly to people with opposing or differing views does nothing to help anything.
Posted on 4/1/18 at 10:47 pm to AlwysATgr
quote:
What things? An example?
The Genesis creation account (if taken literally)
The great flood
The exodus
The Roman census
Those are the four most glaring examples. There are many other debateable events, but these four have such vast amounts of evidence from multiple disciplines arguing against them that we can confidently say they did not happen as described.
This post was edited on 4/1/18 at 10:49 pm
Posted on 4/1/18 at 10:53 pm to Parmen
quote:
If I were you, I'd be absolutely miserable.
I was for a while after realizing I longer believed in my 20s. It shook the foundation of my existence.
I'm now very happy and content with the knowledge however. I have a wonderful wife and kids, enjoy what I do for a living, have relative financial security and am at peace. I understand that ultimately existence is meaningless, and I'm ok with that. I have found subjective meaning and happiness, and that's all I need.
Posted on 4/1/18 at 10:54 pm to Roger Klarvin
quote:
A change that wasn't made until HUNDREDS of years later
And Jesus was born in 3-4 BC, not 1 AD
I ask you, what is the significance and meaning of BC and AD? I warn you, spinning can lead to severe vertigo and nausea.
Posted on 4/1/18 at 10:57 pm to 4cubbies
quote:
Interesting, thanks for the detailed reply. Assuming that's accurate, i can see how that would cause pause when reading other accounts in Luke.
Like I've said before, nobody can "prove" god doesn't exist or that Jesus didn't rise from the dead. They are fundamentally unfalsifiable claims. All I can prove is that SOME things in the Bible are inaccurate and SOME aspects of the theology are philosophically and logically unsound.
I could still be wrong, I would simply question the nature of a God that would provide such a confounding religion and text as the means of salvation.
Posted on 4/1/18 at 10:59 pm to Roger Klarvin
quote:
. I understand that ultimately existence is meaningless,
So do you think meaning doesn't exist? Even without belief in a higher power, surely life can be meaningful?
Posted on 4/1/18 at 11:00 pm to Bass Tiger
quote:
I ask you, what is the significance and meaning of BC and AD? I warn you, spinning can lead to severe vertigo and nausea.
BC stands for "before Christ" and AD for "anno domini", Latin for "in the year of our lord" (or more accurately, "the year of the lord").
Posted on 4/1/18 at 11:02 pm to 4cubbies
quote:
So do you think meaning doesn't exist? Even without belief in a higher power, surely life can be meaningful?
Subjectively sure, and I suppose you could argue fulfilling our biological drive to survive and reproduce constitutes objective meaning in some ways.
But I do not believe there are any objective, eternal ramifications of our lives and actions.
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