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1
Posted on 5/8/20 at 10:35 am to lsaltee
Good thing he was talking about these moral indigenous people.
You progs love whataboutism no matter what you say.
You progs love whataboutism no matter what you say.
Posted on 5/8/20 at 10:38 am to roadGator
quote:
You progs
Posted on 5/8/20 at 10:52 am to FooManChoo
quote:
Of course I touched your critique. Here is what I said:
No one is saved apart from Christ, even unborn children. If God so chooses to save a child murdered through abortion, it is His right to do so, and He would do so by imparting saving grace to the child through His Spirit according to His plan of election.
So your response to my critique is simply to assert that it doesn't matter what God does it's always just.
The shepherd and sheep parable was apt in many ways.
Posted on 5/8/20 at 10:54 am to bfniii
quote:
you are acting like god is not justified for taking lives.
Next time a woman kills her kids saying God told her too you religious nuts better not shout "God would never do that!"
Posted on 5/8/20 at 12:43 pm to lsaltee
quote:
so we are 1st graders talking to quantum physicists? Got it. How dare we question your all knowing authority of Christianity.
Stop pretending you are seeking truth and understanding here. Most of your posts are unnecessarily combative and when you get a good response; instead of taking it in, you just jump to your next attack argument. That might make you feel like you have won an argument but don't fool yourself into thinking you are really seeking truth and understanding.
quote:
The fact that you are ok with a creator that allows suffering when he as the absolute power to change that is just baffling to me. and your answer to that is "whats wrong with that".
The existence of suffering and evil is an argument for the existence of God. You can virtue signal with this point of yours and pretend the issue of suffering and evil isn't a complex issue. But it is. The reality is sometimes suffering is a good thing and a necessary thing to create change. Making an emotional appeal argument like you are doing is just putting feelings ahead of reason.
quote:
Thanks scientist for explaining it to us dummies.
talking down to people
Perhaps if you weren't unnecessarily combative, you might elicit a kinder response in return.
Posted on 5/8/20 at 12:44 pm to Azkiger
quote:
Next time a woman kills her kids saying God told her too you religious nuts better not shout "God would never do that!"
What is your answer for why this happens if there is no God?
Posted on 5/8/20 at 12:45 pm to rebelrouser
quote:
Ask Allah.
Aka literally the same god
Posted on 5/8/20 at 2:39 pm to roadGator
quote:
The ones that killed and enslaved each other?
Yeah, kinda like Kane killed Abel? Was it reason or faith that Kane knew that rock would cave in his brothers head.
More about jealousy I would reason to believe.
Far as I can tell, christians were doomed from the beginning.
It bothers me that, a million babies are killed every year in this country. I'm willing to bet that some of these murders are committed by "christian" people whom believe they are moral and if they repent of this "sin" they can continue on to "heaven". Just seems way to easy to me. It is far harder to do the right thing first time than it is to do the wrong thing and have to cover your arse.
If "god" has put me on this plan, there's been some assholes in the way. Some hurt me, some got hurt and some stepped back.
Uncle Tucker used to say "last ones in the church door, first ones at the beer store". Of course, he didn't think it was immoral to drink and neither do I. Heard tell even ole yeshua has been known to throw back some wine now and again.
If he were fact,there's a good chance we could have been friendly and not agree on a damn thing too.
At the end of the the day, I have no reason to believe in "god" or need faith to cope with difficult times.
The ability to Reason, has seen me through.
However, it is still a free country....for now and, every individuals situation differs. If the book and faith helps you, get after it.
Morality is NOT reserved for christians.
Posted on 5/8/20 at 2:41 pm to TCUFan
quote:
What is your answer for why this happens if there is no God?
Why some mothers kill their children and claim that God told them to do it?
I suspect the vast majority are caused by mental issues.
Posted on 5/8/20 at 2:42 pm to Microtiger
quote:
Aka literally the same god
There are some differences, take the trinity for example.
But it's not surprising to see similar DNA since they're all Abrahamic religions.
Posted on 5/8/20 at 3:02 pm to FATBOY TIGER
quote:
Yeah, kinda like Kane killed Abel? Was it reason or faith that Kane knew that rock would cave in his brothers head.
More about jealousy I would reason to believe.
Yes, people have free will to do good or to do evil.
quote:
Far as I can tell, christians were doomed from the beginning.
Everyone has pressure to sin in this life. But if Christians, fight the good fight, finish the race and keep the faith, they will not be doomed in the end. And I believe that Christians when they follow Christian morality are a positive light to the world which helps the world in this life.
quote:
It bothers me that, a million babies are killed every year in this country. I'm willing to bet that some of these murders are committed by "christian" people whom believe they are moral and if they repent of this "sin" they can continue on to "heaven". Just seems way to easy to me. It is far harder to do the right thing first time than it is to do the wrong thing and have to cover your arse.
It is easy to call yourself a Christian. It is another to live the Christian life. If someone is repeatedly sinning, they are not truly repenting. And Christianity goes further than just saying you need to refrain from transgressing God's laws. In James 4:17, it says "If anyone, then, knows the good they ought to do and doesn't do it, it is sin for them."
quote:
If "god" has put me on this plan, there's been some a-holes in the way. Some hurt me, some got hurt and some stepped back.
Yep, just like the Parable of the Sower. Some folks don't get the message, others get the message but let their friends lead them astray and some hear the message and change their lives for the better.
quote:
Uncle Tucker used to say "last ones in the church door, first ones at the beer store". Of course, he didn't think it was immoral to drink and neither do I. Heard tell even ole yeshua has been known to throw back some wine now and again.
Drinking isn't a sin in and of itself but drunkenness is. I choose to avoid drinking because of the situations it can put you in that can lead to other sinning. 1 Peter 5:8 says "Be alert and of sober mind. Your enemy the devil prowls around like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour."
quote:
If he were fact,there's a good chance we could have been friendly and not agree on a damn thing too.
At the end of the the day, I have no reason to believe in "god" or need faith to cope with difficult times.
The ability to Reason, has seen me through.
Opinions vary.
quote:
However, it is still a free country....for now and, every individuals situation differs. If the book and faith helps you, get after it.
They are those who work to take such rights away from Christians. Christians in Europe and Canada have it worse than Americans in this department though. And there are Christians in other parts of the world that deal with serious persecution.
quote:
Morality is NOT reserved for christians.
If you don't believe in God, it becomes difficult to define what is moral as you are reduced to subjective morality standards. One could choose to live under the objective morality standards of Christianity while not believing in Christ and thus be a moral person as far as that goes. However, if God exists and you reject him, that act would be immoral. Plus, if you do not believe in an afterlife, it is going to influence what you believe to be good and bad.
Posted on 5/8/20 at 3:17 pm to TCUFan
quote:
If you don't believe in God, it becomes difficult to define what is moral as you are reduced to subjective morality standards.
Is an action morally good because God commands it, or does God command it because it is good?
Either objective moral values are outside of God (the latter), or based on God's own whims (the former).
Even if you could solve the Euthyphro dilemma, you're left with an equally uncomfortable situation. I often hear religious people worry about subjective moral systems leading to horrible behavior, like killing children or something. Thankfully that wouldn't happen in an objective moral system, just ignore the 10th plague, Noah's flood, the Battle of Jericho, the slaughter of the Midianites, the... Well, you get the point.
Posted on 5/8/20 at 4:02 pm to Azkiger
quote:
Is an action morally good because God commands it, or does God command it because it is good?
Either objective moral values are outside of God (the latter), or based on God's own whims (the former).
Or because God is good, it naturally follows that his commands contain his goodness. You keep trying to separate God from goodness and so Christians will reject your false dichotomy.
quote:
Even if you could solve the Euthyphro dilemma, you're left with an equally uncomfortable situation. I often hear religious people worry about subjective moral systems leading to horrible behavior, like killing children or something.
Because it has happened in the 20th Century.
quote:
Thankfully that wouldn't happen in an objective moral system, just ignore the 10th plague, Noah's flood, the Battle of Jericho, the slaughter of the Midianites, the... Well, you get the point.
On what basis are you claiming any of these things are wrong? Don't forget you have subjective moral standards. You may not like that it happened but you have your subjective moral standards and others have their own. Who are you to tell them that they are wrong and you are right or vice versa?
This post was edited on 5/8/20 at 4:11 pm
Posted on 5/8/20 at 4:13 pm to TCUFan
quote:
Stop pretending you are seeking truth and understanding here. Most of your posts are unnecessarily combative and when you get a good response; instead of taking it in, you just jump to your next attack argument. That might make you feel like you have won an argument but don't fool yourself into thinking you are really seeking truth and understanding.
Stop pretending to know the entire truth. You are here spreading your belief like its fact and never changing and we must believe or else. Hell, just recently the pope declared the big bang and evolution as real. So to say that the guys several thousand years ago got it completely right and that the Bible is absolute truth is disingenuous. I'm not here to argue that there is no God. I'm here to express my opinion that I don't think what we think we know is correct.
quote:
The existence of suffering and evil is an argument for the existence of God. You can virtue signal with this point of yours and pretend the issue of suffering and evil isn't a complex issue. But it is. The reality is sometimes suffering is a good thing and a necessary thing to create change. Making an emotional appeal argument like you are doing is just putting feelings ahead of reason.
My main point about evil and suffering is that an all powerful all loving God has the absolute capability to create a world without it and put us there first instead. Why the need to enable suffering and evil if it causes pain?
He has the ability do that yet he chooses to let us suffer? Why? Is it to make us a better stronger person? To build our faith in him? If all powerful why have any of that in the first place? Why not just create us full of faith and painless? Why the rule that we must have the bad to get the good?
quote:
Perhaps if you weren't unnecessarily combative, you might elicit a kinder response in return.
I havent attacked anyone. I have been called names and talked down to by "Christians " in this thread though. So excuse my tone as I ask my questions. But most responses have been based on the assumption that the Bible is God's word. What if its not? I applaud your faith. I was there once as well but there are just too many unanswerable questions to blindly follow a religion based upon an actient book written and composed by men. And if you haven't looked around, men are capable of very evil things for power, control and wealth.
Posted on 5/8/20 at 4:52 pm to TCUFan
its all a mystery.
which some find scary.
but there isnt any toothfairy santa Claus thing in the sky who knows if youve been good or bad. god is a jewish lie.
you christ-ians need to wake-up.
no big guy in sky is in charge.
thats for childish nomads.
there is no such thing as god as father creator.
no son. no father. all fake news.
stop posting fundamentalist lies.
no one knows how anything came into being.
big bang is a theory.
its all a mystery.
which some find scary.
but there isnt any toothfairy santa Claus thing in the sky who knows if youve been good or bad.
which some find scary.
but there isnt any toothfairy santa Claus thing in the sky who knows if youve been good or bad. god is a jewish lie.
you christ-ians need to wake-up.
no big guy in sky is in charge.
thats for childish nomads.
there is no such thing as god as father creator.
no son. no father. all fake news.
stop posting fundamentalist lies.
no one knows how anything came into being.
big bang is a theory.
its all a mystery.
which some find scary.
but there isnt any toothfairy santa Claus thing in the sky who knows if youve been good or bad.
This post was edited on 5/8/20 at 4:56 pm
Posted on 5/8/20 at 4:55 pm to UPT
To be close to God, one must be libertarian imo
Posted on 5/8/20 at 5:23 pm to TCUFan
quote:
Or because God is good, it naturally follows that his commands contain his goodness. You keep trying to separate God from goodness and so Christians will reject your false dichotomy.
You've just pushed the problem back one step.
Where did his nature come from?
Did he choose his own nature (which means actions are morally good because God commands it) or did he not choose his own nature (Goodness isn't up to God, it's outside of his control, he's just the middleman relaying morality to humanity)?
quote:
Because it has happened in the 20th Century... On what basis are you claiming any of these things are wrong? Don't forget you have subjective moral standards. You may not like that it happened but you have your subjective moral standards and others have their own. Who are you to tell them that they are wrong and you are right or vice versa?
It's really interesting to see these two answers back to back.
To you, a subjective moral system allowing for kids to be killed sounds horrific. But an objective moral system that allows for that very same thing is ok because by definition it has to be ok.
That's as good of a reason to allow the mass killing of children if I've ever heard one!
This post was edited on 5/8/20 at 5:24 pm
Posted on 5/8/20 at 5:38 pm to CelticDog
quote:
but there isnt any toothfairy santa Claus thing in the sky who knows if youve been good or bad. god is a jewish lie.
you christ-ians need to wake-up.
Christians don't believe in a man in the sky. That is a New Atheist construction.
How do you know God doesn't exist?
quote:
no one knows how anything came into being.
How do you know that? How do you know what everyone knows?
Posted on 5/8/20 at 6:04 pm to Azkiger
quote:
You've just pushed the problem back one step.
Where did his nature come from?
Did he choose his own nature (which means actions are morally good because God commands it) or did he not choose his own nature (Goodness isn't up to God, it's outside of his control, he's just the middleman relaying morality to humanity)?
You have just repackaged your argument with the same false dichotomy. You keep trying to treat God as if he was you. He is not. He is the Creator and you are part of his Creation. He is the uncaused cause. He is beyond time, space and matter. Goodness is God. It is not a question of creation or choosing.
quote:
It's really interesting to see these two answers back to back.
You dodged the questions. I could understand why you would want to but this is a big problem for atheists who want to be critical of Christianity on morality grounds. As an atheist with subjective morality standards, you lack a sound basis upon which to criticize Christianity on moral grounds.
quote:
To you, a subjective moral system allowing for kids to be killed sounds horrific. But an objective moral system that allows for that very same thing is ok because by definition it has to be ok.
I do believe Christian morality is best for society because God set the world a certain way. I do believe God can deliver judgment as he is the Creator. I also recognize my own limitations and God has many attributes (omnipotent, omnipotent, omniscience, etc.) that I do not have which make it ridiculous for me to think I can question his judgment.
I also recognize the many problems of subjective moral standards which you want to pretend do not exist. I have seen what has become of society in the West as we have pulled away from Christian morality and applied your subjective morality and it is not a positive.
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