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Started By
Message
Free Traders are not following what's happening. Hear this out
Posted on 5/21/19 at 1:43 pm
Posted on 5/21/19 at 1:43 pm
This is China vs the USA. It's that simple. Trump is not anti "free Trade" but he is America first.
What you see happening right now is a reality of what happens when you look at things as black and white. When you ignore ALL of the data you can not see any options but the one you know. I loved the thread on hedgehogs and foxes....
You are hedgehogs. You have been told that this is free trade and that's your single minded focus.
Trade, free or not, is not always great for our nation when you take into considerations ALL THINGS. You tend to believe that the ONE ISSUE of cheaper goods is the END all to trade. HOW can that be when that trade isn't:
- free trade
- cost jobs
- builds up an enemy nation
You, for whatever reason, can not adjust your view.
In an attempt to help you understand, I hope a civil conversation is explored.
1- As you can see the focus is one one nation. A Communist nation. China.
2- As you can see, the new information is to remove ourselves from China to other emerging markets.... like India.
3- This does not hurt the USA long term. It helps. You have more options. It does CRUSH China. They know it too. They dug themselves a hole financially in an effort to bring the USA down and make them the leaders.
The tariffs have helped the USA. Example, plants OWNED by foreigner move here to escape the Tariffs. Businesses also move into other nations that are not enemies of the USA.
In the end, you get what you want (cheaper products) without dealing with a nation bent on taking over the free world. In the end we help our allies build..... In the end, more jobs here are produced.
What you see happening right now is a reality of what happens when you look at things as black and white. When you ignore ALL of the data you can not see any options but the one you know. I loved the thread on hedgehogs and foxes....
You are hedgehogs. You have been told that this is free trade and that's your single minded focus.
Trade, free or not, is not always great for our nation when you take into considerations ALL THINGS. You tend to believe that the ONE ISSUE of cheaper goods is the END all to trade. HOW can that be when that trade isn't:
- free trade
- cost jobs
- builds up an enemy nation
You, for whatever reason, can not adjust your view.
In an attempt to help you understand, I hope a civil conversation is explored.
1- As you can see the focus is one one nation. A Communist nation. China.
2- As you can see, the new information is to remove ourselves from China to other emerging markets.... like India.
3- This does not hurt the USA long term. It helps. You have more options. It does CRUSH China. They know it too. They dug themselves a hole financially in an effort to bring the USA down and make them the leaders.
The tariffs have helped the USA. Example, plants OWNED by foreigner move here to escape the Tariffs. Businesses also move into other nations that are not enemies of the USA.
In the end, you get what you want (cheaper products) without dealing with a nation bent on taking over the free world. In the end we help our allies build..... In the end, more jobs here are produced.
8
Posted on 5/21/19 at 1:44 pm to Jjdoc
You can't have free trade with someone who's following completely different rules. It's not possible
Posted on 5/21/19 at 1:46 pm to Jjdoc
IB Brokeass will be along soon to correct you
Posted on 5/21/19 at 1:47 pm to Jjdoc
China is not engaging in free trade. And they certainly aren't interested in fair trade.
Posted on 5/21/19 at 1:51 pm to Jjdoc
^when you finally start to realize the jobs you blame them for stealing are going somewhere other than the US and now are forced to try to frameshift into trade partner diversity or something
like nobody remembers that we walked out on a massive trade deal with a bunch of china's competitors and are getting nowhere with replacing that deal
lol, just lol
like nobody remembers that we walked out on a massive trade deal with a bunch of china's competitors and are getting nowhere with replacing that deal
lol, just lol
This post was edited on 5/21/19 at 1:52 pm
Posted on 5/21/19 at 1:58 pm to Jjdoc
Aint no such a thing as free market in a world where one side is footing the bill for all security and the other sides are free to use those resources to subsidize their industries.
It is arguably necessary for the US to pay for the world's security since we are probably more benevolent than anyone else would be. That doesn't mean we ought to be worshipping at the alter of free markets when we are competing with one arm tied behind our backs. We have, as a nation, been sold a bill of goods by the investor class....they have convinced enough of us that free trade actually exists so they can go about the globe investing in shite holes and exploiting folks all the while knowing that mom and pop US taxpayer will foot the bill for security and if shite goes south the US military will step in and correct any sizable wrong doing.
We subsidize workers and industries across the globe, do so with US workers and businesses tax money and then have the unmitigated gall to tell those taxpayers they must compete "on a level playing field"....and we have swallowed that tripe for nearly 39 years. Both parties were all in on it when Bill Clinton out GOPd the GOP....and the US Middle class has just about been pushed to extinction as a result.
Taxes...and tariffs are a consumer tax....do not negatively effect the economy. We have also been sold that tripe for nearly 40 years....but we have seen that taxes, well applied, do not negatively impact the economy and they can and have proven effective in protecting US workers and US business interests domestically....Donald Trump, for all his faults real and imagined, has laid the lie to free markets and Reaganesque conservatism....and it will be decades before the GOP is able to stuff that cat back in the sack so their investor class base will have us once again buying that sack of lies....
It is arguably necessary for the US to pay for the world's security since we are probably more benevolent than anyone else would be. That doesn't mean we ought to be worshipping at the alter of free markets when we are competing with one arm tied behind our backs. We have, as a nation, been sold a bill of goods by the investor class....they have convinced enough of us that free trade actually exists so they can go about the globe investing in shite holes and exploiting folks all the while knowing that mom and pop US taxpayer will foot the bill for security and if shite goes south the US military will step in and correct any sizable wrong doing.
We subsidize workers and industries across the globe, do so with US workers and businesses tax money and then have the unmitigated gall to tell those taxpayers they must compete "on a level playing field"....and we have swallowed that tripe for nearly 39 years. Both parties were all in on it when Bill Clinton out GOPd the GOP....and the US Middle class has just about been pushed to extinction as a result.
Taxes...and tariffs are a consumer tax....do not negatively effect the economy. We have also been sold that tripe for nearly 40 years....but we have seen that taxes, well applied, do not negatively impact the economy and they can and have proven effective in protecting US workers and US business interests domestically....Donald Trump, for all his faults real and imagined, has laid the lie to free markets and Reaganesque conservatism....and it will be decades before the GOP is able to stuff that cat back in the sack so their investor class base will have us once again buying that sack of lies....
Posted on 5/21/19 at 3:03 pm to 90proofprofessional
quote:
when you finally start to realize the jobs you blame them for stealing are going somewhere other than the US and now are forced to try to frameshift into trade partner diversity or something
Still in a narrow view are we?
quote:
like nobody remembers that we walked out on a massive trade deal with a bunch of china's competitors and are getting nowhere with replacing that deal
Like that has anything to do with the topic. Free trade or trade agreements DO NOT have to be multilateral..
Posted on 5/21/19 at 3:25 pm to Uncle Don
Yes I will.
You cannot even start to have a civil conversation with uninformed people.
Read the 301 directive and then you will know what this trade war is about.
It is amazing how people say this is about this or about that and then when you read the directive you see it has nothing to do with either.
Let me give you the cliff note version for the umpteenth time.
1) It is about protecting IP by getting China to change their IP laws. US multinational companies want the law on their side when selling into or investing in China. An honorable goal with little impact on the US economy.
2) it is about ending investment requirements in China that require US companies to take on Chinese or even subsets of the Chinese government as partners. Believe it not this is a requirement of some provinces or government subsets but not all in China. US multinational companies want to invest there without taking on these partners. As sort of a subset of this is they want US banks and other financial institutions to be able to expand lending and investment in China. This will of course make more foreign investment available to the Chinese and tariff supporters obviously are glad for that.
3) only a very small amount of the directive mentions the trade deficit. There is some mention of expanded agricultural exports from the US>
So if you are for the punishing tariffs on Americans--that is what they are BTW and there is no debating that--you are for China making it easier for US companies to sell into and invest in China. You have decided that that whatever tariffs Trump dreams up are ok to accomplish these goals.
You cannot even start to have a civil conversation with uninformed people.
Read the 301 directive and then you will know what this trade war is about.
It is amazing how people say this is about this or about that and then when you read the directive you see it has nothing to do with either.
Let me give you the cliff note version for the umpteenth time.
1) It is about protecting IP by getting China to change their IP laws. US multinational companies want the law on their side when selling into or investing in China. An honorable goal with little impact on the US economy.
2) it is about ending investment requirements in China that require US companies to take on Chinese or even subsets of the Chinese government as partners. Believe it not this is a requirement of some provinces or government subsets but not all in China. US multinational companies want to invest there without taking on these partners. As sort of a subset of this is they want US banks and other financial institutions to be able to expand lending and investment in China. This will of course make more foreign investment available to the Chinese and tariff supporters obviously are glad for that.
3) only a very small amount of the directive mentions the trade deficit. There is some mention of expanded agricultural exports from the US>
So if you are for the punishing tariffs on Americans--that is what they are BTW and there is no debating that--you are for China making it easier for US companies to sell into and invest in China. You have decided that that whatever tariffs Trump dreams up are ok to accomplish these goals.
This post was edited on 5/21/19 at 3:36 pm
Posted on 5/21/19 at 3:47 pm to Jjdoc
quote:
This is China vs the USA. It's that simple.
No shite. With our bumbling foreign policy during the 8 years of Obama, we purposely took a backseat and allowed China to drastically expand their influence. The thing with China, is that they are happy to extend billions in loans to foreign countries for improve their infrastructure, but what they get in return in leverage that they absolutely use to their advantage. I was reading just this past weekend how China gave Sri Lanka billions to build a new shipping port. Eventually they were no longer able to service the debt and China was able to sign a 99 year lease on this modern port. The same thing is currently happening in the small country of Djibouti, which if you are unaware provides a vital shipping port in the Middle East. It is also home to our only permanent military base in Africa. China has again entered the area providing billions in investment for infrastructure. The fear is that China will eventually squeeze us out of this vital port and military base.
Tariffs aren't being implemented just because of out trade deficit with China and their unfair trade practices. It's being done to counter a lot of the momentum we gave them during the Obama years.
Posted on 5/21/19 at 4:18 pm to Jjdoc
quote:
Still in a narrow view are we?
what's in view is how transparent & weak this whole attempt at frameshifting is quote:
Like that has anything to do with the topic. Free trade or trade agreements DO NOT have to be multilateral
the fact that we rejected over a dozen of those trade partners, and haven't done shite to make up all the lost ground, has everything to do with the topic.
particularly the stuff you brought up about having "more options" and "helping our allies build".
we've done the exact opposite. we still are. now we're even threatening foreign automakers who open US plants employing americans
Posted on 5/21/19 at 7:57 pm to I B Freeman
quote:
You cannot even start to have a civil conversation with uninformed people.
Hedgehogger.
Plain and simple.
quote:
Read the 301 directive and then you will know what this trade war is about.
First, the 301 DIRECTIVE is an intelligence thing issued in 2006. So no, It has zero to do with the 301 DIRECTIVE.
So how can we have a conversation with you when you are so uninformed to call it the 301 directive?
So you see, act like a child and a jackass, get treated like one.
What he is referring to the the Presidential Memorandum on the Actions by the United States Related to the Section 301 Investigation
I will go ahead and get that out of the way for everybody. LINK
quote:
So if you are for the punishing tariffs on Americans--that is what they are BTW and there is no debating that--you are for China making it easier for US companies to sell into and invest in China. You have decided that that whatever tariffs Trump dreams up are ok to accomplish these goals.
Nope! Still in a small bubble.
BTW.. Trump is head to another Asian country to start working new deals.
Posted on 5/21/19 at 8:08 pm to 90proofprofessional
quote:
the fact that we rejected over a dozen of those trade partners, and haven't done shite to make up all the lost ground, has everything to do with the topic.
particularly the stuff you brought up about having "more options" and "helping our allies build".
Get real man!
Moving out of China
Trump signs better deal with ALLY S KOREA!
Tariffs are causing companies to leave China
quote:
According to a survey of 219 companies by the American Chamber of Commerce in South China, a U.S. Chamber of Commerce-affiliated nonprofit representing over 2,300 American businesses in China, more than 70 percent of U.S. companies operating in southern China, the national hub for consumer product manufacturing, are considering either delaying investment there or moving production to other countries in order to keep the prices of final products stable for consumers.
You are NOT WATCHING SIR.. Open your eyes. take in other information....
Posted on 5/21/19 at 8:17 pm to Jjdoc
quote:
Get real man!
yeah none of that even begins to make up for lost ground with any tpp countries
the only thing we've gotten in the meantime was an extension of KORUS mostly exactly as it was before, but slightly-modified to extend our ridiculously high truck tariff that was supposed to fall off. that's worse, if you want more options and less barriers
yay for more options!
quote:
You are NOT WATCHING SIR.. Open your eyes. take in other information....
take your own advice.
Posted on 5/21/19 at 8:23 pm to 90proofprofessional
quote:
yeah none of that even begins to make up for lost ground with any tpp countries
We, thankfully, lost no ground at all! You are welcome.
BUT what you really meant to say is "man, I didn't know that.... maybe I will look at this again and keep an open mind"
quote:
yay for more options!
That shall be! Everybody wants to be in the USA with their product.
quote:
take your own advice.
Don't be mad because I pointed out, with links, facts for you that was proof against your claims.
Posted on 5/21/19 at 8:29 pm to Jjdoc
quote:
We, thankfully, lost no ground at all! You are welcome.
tpp lowered ~17000 tariffs bruh
we said no thanks, then extended high tariffs with s korea, hit metals and a lot of stuff from china bigtime. and on top of taxing ourselves, we get hit with retaliation
and what do we have to show for this approach? companies leaving china for india or whatever isn't a great compensation for our stalling exports
This post was edited on 5/21/19 at 8:31 pm
Posted on 5/21/19 at 8:41 pm to Jjdoc
quote:
First, the 301 DIRECTIVE is an intelligence thing issued in 2006. So no, It has zero to do with the 301 DIRECTIVE.
So how can we have a conversation with you when you are so uninformed to call it the 301 directive?
You are absolutely clueless.
These tariffs are 301 tariffs and to impose them the Office of the Trade Representative has to prepare a 301 directive. The representative has to follow certain criteria and has to state the goals of the tariffs. The President after all has somewhat limited power to impose tariffs.
The steel tariffs are 232 tariffs and they are imposed by the President for National Security reason which in this case is a crock of s***. There is a challenge to the tariffs headed to the Supreme Court.
You should just quit posting on tariffs if you do not understand all of this and you damn sure look like an idiot to anyone that knows anything about 301 tariffs with that post.
This post was edited on 5/21/19 at 8:43 pm
Posted on 5/21/19 at 8:46 pm to I B Freeman
Kobe beef. /
Posted on 5/21/19 at 9:28 pm to I B Freeman
In JJDOC link to the President's memo you can see him referencing the trade officer's points and you can see just how limited the goals of the tariffs are---
As I have said ten thousand times the first point Trump made is central to the trade war. It is about forced partnerships in China.
In points two, three and four Trump is talking about another central point-- IP laws in China.
If any of you ever take the time to read the OTR findings in their directive you will see talk about the belt road initiative and talk about banking in China.
What you will not see is much talk about the trade deficit, much talk about more exports from the US although they are trying to get some bones thrown in along those lines and the Chinese want to do something on commodity things like beans, much talk about war or much talk about US jobs.
Regardless of what you have conjured up in your head at the end of the day this is about doing business in and investing in China. It is not about imports to the USA.
One should know that there are a lot of countries with very weak IP laws but none with markets the size of China.
We have a trade war today so US companies can feel better about investing and selling into China. Many seem to be giving up and moving to lower cost countries but who really cares.
Ask yourself how long should the entire population of the USA be taxed to advance the interest of those companies wishing to invest in China??? Why should we force more liberal finance laws and IP laws on them that will strengthen their economy?
I am perfectly happy letting US businesses and consumer buy from China when the deal is right and letting them buy somewhere else when it is not.
quote:
First, China uses foreign ownership restrictions, including joint venture requirements, equity limitations, and other investment restrictions, to require or pressure technology transfer from U.S. companies to Chinese entities. China also uses administrative review and licensing procedures to require or pressure technology transfer, which, inter alia, undermines the value of U.S. investments and technology and weakens the global competitiveness of U.S. firms.
Second, China imposes substantial restrictions on, and intervenes in, U.S. firms’ investments and activities, including through restrictions on technology licensing terms. These restrictions deprive U.S. technology owners of the ability to bargain and set market-based terms for technology transfer. As a result, U.S. companies seeking to license technologies must do so on terms that unfairly favor Chinese recipients.
Third, China directs and facilitates the systematic investment in, and acquisition of, U.S. companies and assets by Chinese companies to obtain cutting-edge technologies and intellectual property and to generate large-scale technology transfer in industries deemed important by Chinese government industrial plans.
Fourth, China conducts and supports unauthorized intrusions into, and theft from, the computer networks of U.S. companies. These actions provide the Chinese government with unauthorized access to intellectual property, trade secrets, or confidential business information, including technical data, negotiating positions, and sensitive and proprietary internal business communications, and they also support China’s strategic development goals, including its science and technology advancement, military modernization, and economic development.
As I have said ten thousand times the first point Trump made is central to the trade war. It is about forced partnerships in China.
In points two, three and four Trump is talking about another central point-- IP laws in China.
If any of you ever take the time to read the OTR findings in their directive you will see talk about the belt road initiative and talk about banking in China.
What you will not see is much talk about the trade deficit, much talk about more exports from the US although they are trying to get some bones thrown in along those lines and the Chinese want to do something on commodity things like beans, much talk about war or much talk about US jobs.
Regardless of what you have conjured up in your head at the end of the day this is about doing business in and investing in China. It is not about imports to the USA.
One should know that there are a lot of countries with very weak IP laws but none with markets the size of China.
We have a trade war today so US companies can feel better about investing and selling into China. Many seem to be giving up and moving to lower cost countries but who really cares.
Ask yourself how long should the entire population of the USA be taxed to advance the interest of those companies wishing to invest in China??? Why should we force more liberal finance laws and IP laws on them that will strengthen their economy?
I am perfectly happy letting US businesses and consumer buy from China when the deal is right and letting them buy somewhere else when it is not.
This post was edited on 5/21/19 at 9:33 pm
Posted on 5/21/19 at 10:16 pm to Jjdoc
These people are selling out their nation and fellow citizens for percentages that line their pockets. There is no underlying philosophical good behind this.
Posted on 5/21/19 at 10:33 pm to I B Freeman
quote:
You are absolutely clueless.
I'm not the one that called it the 301 Directive. LINK
quote:
These tariffs are 301 tariffs
That's not the 301 directive though and your smartass stated 301 Directive to be a condescending JACKASS to people. Maybe you should grow up. ??
quote:
You should just quit posting on tariffs if you do not understand all of this and you damn sure look like an idiot to anyone that knows anything about 301 tariffs with that post.
Yes Mr 301 Directive... you DO look stupid and have for 2 years
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