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re: "Forgotten" Rural France seethes - echos of BREXIT and Trump
Posted on 4/11/17 at 12:59 pm to Scruffy
Posted on 4/11/17 at 12:59 pm to Scruffy
quote:
Well, you may be right, but, like our rust belt, they likely feel that legislation and decisions are being made that benefit those in larger cities and completely disregards the well-being of the smaller towns.
Not familiar with France's election process, but I assume they don't operate with an electoral college like us that gives rural or "flyover" areas an equal voice.
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Posted on 4/11/17 at 1:12 pm to Scruffy
quote:Sure. Whatever social system France has set up should benefit its citizens. It doesn't sound as though those people are specifically being denied anything, though. Small towns die. We've seen that in this country even in the last 50 years. It's not the government's job to take taxpayer money to prop up those towns.
But the taxes used to support those migrants should go to the French citizens, correct?
Is that unreasonable?
Posted on 4/11/17 at 1:21 pm to LSUTigersVCURams
That looks like Cairo Illinois in the bottom picture.
Posted on 4/11/17 at 1:26 pm to ShortyRob
quote:Our rural areas, from our farming communities in the midwest to our small towns down south, are in no way, shape, or form a net "extra tax base." They are a net tax liability for their state governments and the federal government.
They view rural areas as nothing more than extra tax base.
Posted on 4/11/17 at 1:29 pm to Mo Jeaux
quote:Not the kind of thing I can conclusively say no to, but I'd be interested in hearing any that "promote" urbanization in more than a tangential way.
You don't think there are government policy actions that promote urbanization?
Posted on 4/11/17 at 1:32 pm to Navytiger74
quote:I don't disagree, but that likely isn't how they see it. Like our rust belt, they want jobs and workable economies in their communities. They felt they were being ignored since the previous president's administration's focus was on immigrants and the global community, not them.
Whatever social system France has set up should benefit its citizens. It doesn't sound as though those people are specifically being denied anything, though. Small towns die. We've seen that in this country even in the last 50 years. It's not the government's job to take taxpayer money to prop up those towns.
There is merit to those complaints. I realize I am projecting a lot of American sentiment, but take the discussion on immigrants for example. We are arguing and discussing immigration and non-Americans while completely ignoring our own homeless and poor.
I guarantee that the rural French are feeling the same sentiments. Why should their towns fail? Why does their government and that of the EU care more about the immigrants than them? Why are tax dollars going to refugees when they need them? Why isn't their government discussing how to help the actual French?
This segment of most populations are repeatedly promised the world, and receive nothing for their votes.
This post was edited on 4/11/17 at 1:40 pm
Posted on 4/11/17 at 1:37 pm to lathoroughbred
quote:
That looks like Cairo Illinois in the bottom picture.
Good eye. It is.
Posted on 4/11/17 at 1:44 pm to Scruffy
quote:
No, but they still pay taxes and vote.
Yep.
quote:
They should be cared for equally, shouldn't they?
sure, and in the US they are over represented in congress and the executive.
quote:
And that is likely part of their complaint.
Naw, they are just bitching about how the world is changing. Its akin to old people saying how music sucks these days.
shite changes, you have to change with it or get left behind.
Has our gov't done a good job helping people change? No they haven't, but honestly I don't think the people in rural areas really want to get that type of help. A lot of that help will be - learn to use computers and work your arse off.
Posted on 4/11/17 at 1:44 pm to IdahoTiger
quote:That is the way I look at it. Correct me if I'm wrong, but in order for capitalism to work at its absolute best, don't you need a global economy?
Le Pen could definitely win the first round, but there's no way she's winning the second round thank god. If she wins, the EU will be done. That is not good for the world or America no matter how you look at it.
Posted on 4/11/17 at 1:46 pm to MontyFranklyn
quote:
That is the way I look at it. Correct me if I'm wrong, but in order for capitalism to work at its absolute best, don't you need a global economy?
Not only that, the issues that France has with immigration have nothing to do with the EU. The migrant crisis related to the Syrian War is a distinct thing and people continually conflate the two.
Posted on 4/11/17 at 1:49 pm to Navytiger74
quote:
Those towns don't sound as though they're suffering from overcrowding unless I misread the article. And there aren't a great deal of immigrants of any kind living in the French countryside (or any European countryside, for that matter).
Okay - that's step one. Now think forward to step two.... When all of a nation's excess funds are going to feed / shelter / treat / monitor / jail a bunch of non-contributing, non-assimilating citizens, what does that do to the rural areas and their roads / community buildings / etc.
This post was edited on 4/11/17 at 1:50 pm
Posted on 4/11/17 at 1:50 pm to Hawkeye95
quote:So, in your opinion, the shifting of manufacturing jobs out of America didn't hurt them?
Naw, they are just bitching about how the world is changing. Its akin to old people saying how music sucks these days.
quote:I don't disagree.
shite changes, you have to change with it or get left behind.
quote:I don't think our government has done right by that section of our country at all.
Has our gov't done a good job helping people change? No they haven't, but honestly I don't think the people in rural areas really want to get that type of help. A lot of that help will be - learn to use computers and work your arse off.
And to your point that they are overrepresented, let's not act like that component hasn't been abused by those in power.
This was a major Dem voting bloc for decades. Over the past couple decades, they were promised everything and none of it was delivered.
They felt betrayed and used. You can only promise jobs and not deliver so many times.
This post was edited on 4/11/17 at 1:52 pm
Posted on 4/11/17 at 1:52 pm to Scruffy
Le Pen's path to victory is ~80% turnout among her base while her opponent gets only
~65% turnout.
There are varying opinions as to which opponent would be best for her to run against - the consensus seems to be the surging liberal (although he is also anti-EU or at least claims to be).
~65% turnout.
There are varying opinions as to which opponent would be best for her to run against - the consensus seems to be the surging liberal (although he is also anti-EU or at least claims to be).
Posted on 4/11/17 at 1:56 pm to Scruffy
quote:
So, in your opinion, the shifting of manufacturing jobs out of America didn't hurt them?
No it did, but realistically not much could be done about it.
quote:
I don't think our government has done right by that section of our country at all.
What should have the gov't done? The best idea I have is to help them with re-training on job skills.
quote:
This was a major Dem voting bloc for decades. Over the past couple decades, they were promised everything and none of it was delivered.
Well trump promised them a bunch of stuff, and its not going to happen.
I think it goes back to the world changing and these populations as opposed to changing with it are bitching about how it changed.
This post was edited on 4/11/17 at 1:57 pm
Posted on 4/11/17 at 2:01 pm to Hawkeye95
quote:Or work to potentially retain manufacturing within this country.
What should have the gov't done? The best idea I have is to help them with re-training on job skills.
quote:A distinct possibility, but besides the point.
Well trump promised them a bunch of stuff, and its not going to happen.
quote:Then don't promise them the world and never deliver.
I think it goes back to the world changing and these populations as opposed to changing with it are bitching about how it changed.
Despite HRC's flaws, she was unintentionally the most honest Democratic candidate ever. She showed that politicians don't care for that entire region of the country. Trump tapped into it the resentment of that region.
Posted on 4/11/17 at 2:06 pm to Scruffy
quote:
Or work to potentially retain manufacturing within this country.
how?
quote:
Despite HRC's flaws, she was unintentionally the most honest Democratic candidate ever. She showed that politicians don't care for that entire region of the country. Trump tapped into it the resentment of that region.
And if they are honest in their evaluation, trump is going to whiff. Not b/c he sucks but b.c those jobs aren't coming back.
Posted on 4/11/17 at 2:09 pm to Hawkeye95
quote:Is it impossible to make manufacturing in the USA a favorable economic decision?
how?
Posted on 4/11/17 at 2:11 pm to SirWinston
quote:You're applying talking points and platitudes to a discussion that requires a bit more in the way of fact. I don't have a breakdown of how social services and welfare dollars are doled out in France. I don't know what people get in cities, I don't know what they get in the countryside, and I don't know what goes to immigrants. I also don't know which groups contribute the most and least to the state's coffers, though I could probably take a swag at that.
Okay - that's step one. Now think forward to step two.... When all of a nation's excess funds are going to feed / shelter / treat / monitor / jail a bunch of non-contributing, non-assimilating citizens, what does that do to the rural areas and their roads / community buildings / etc.
I'm not trying to be tedious but can you quantify exactly what/how much is being taken from rural communities and given to North Africans in cities? You might be surprised by what you find. Rural communities aren't terribly productive in most places in the industrialized world. They tend to be pretty much be a drag on the economy.
Posted on 4/11/17 at 2:15 pm to Navytiger74
quote:True, but in the minds of these citizens, that is likely irrelevant.
Rural communities aren't terribly productive in most places in the industrialized world. They tend to be pretty much be a drag on the economy.
Why should any money go to the non-French over the French citizens? They pay taxes.
Why should they be forced to pay for a "humanitarian crisis" from another country when they have their own "crisis" on the home front that deserves attention?
Posted on 4/11/17 at 2:21 pm to Scruffy
quote:
Is it impossible to make manufacturing in the USA a favorable economic decision?
Well manufacturing in the US is growing, the thing is that its a different type of manufacturing.
The low skill / high paying jobs are just gone. They aren't going to come back. It was moved due to labor costs, and unless those workers are going to work for a few dollars an hour, there is nothing that can be done that makes economic sense.
The manufacturing that is growing in the US is the stuff that is high skill, plus it requires a lot fewer workers. Hell they are automating a ton of manufacturing in asia, even though labor there is a fraction of what it is here.
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